Category: Blog Posts

At the end of last year when looking forward to 2020, being confined to home with no school for kids wasn’t part of the plan – but making the best of this opportunity to pass on some life skills seems like a good idea. If you are home with your kids like us right now, then you can count yourselves among the lucky…

Rigid foam insulation boards are different. Choose carefully between Polyisocyanurate, EPS & XPS or Mineral Wool & Hemp as the wrong choice can reduce insulation performance & cause mold & rot in building envelope’s. Polyisocyanurate (PIR), Extruded Polystyrene (XPS), Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) or Styrofoam?
When…

Even when turned off, gas stoves & cooktops can be dangerous – leaking harmful chemicals like nitrogen dioxide, methane & cancer-causing benzine into homes. Over 40 million US & Canadian households can mitigate or eliminate the risks from cooking with gas. Gas stoves – playing with fire?
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Faced with the rise in the cost of living that is hitting Canada and North America, reducing energy use and bills has become a necessity. To stay positive, the Ecohome team explores ways to save money while living better and greener. The current economic situation is pushing many Canadians and North Americans to…

We previously reported that the UK and Europe had started phasing out the use of ‘natural’ fossil gas in homes, and that Canada has also started to drop hints about banning gas. Now California has decided to ban Gas Heating and Gas Water Heaters in Homes. “While this strategy will clean the air for all Californians…

Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for and about realtors from the Canadian Real Estate Association. We’ve got a terrific guest for you today. I’m Erin Davis, and you’re going to be tempted to take notes or just listen again and again because our guest is an author, instructor, keynote speaker, certified professional coach, and the person you wish you had sitting next to you on a plane for four hours, Neil Thornton, President of the Thornton Group. Just some of his wisdom, your business will get better when your people get better, your people will get better when their management gets better.

As the workforce continues to evolve with some post-pandemic industries experiencing a labor shortfall, and others seeing an increase, creating a culture that employees value is critical to recruit and retain the right talent. Here we go. On episode 30 of REAL TIME, we are joined by Neil Thornton to help REALTORS® and brokers, regardless of your role on a team, strengthen your leadership, coaching, and engagement skills to build a strong team culture. Welcome to REAL TIME, Neil. It is such a pleasure to talk with you today.

Neil Thornton: Same here, Erin. Thanks. I’m so excited to do this.

Erin: You got to tell us a little bit about the Thornton Group. A lot of the people who are listening today are familiar with you. You did a talk recently for CREA in St. John’s, and of course, you’re well known for what you do, but why don’t you tell the few who don’t know just what the Thornton Group is?

Neil: It’s been a great ride, about 23 years. I often tell people it’s strategic doing that we do, and they look at me really odd. I’ll often say, “The strategic planning is easy, it’s the doing that’s the hard part.” Then, in part of that doing is leading change. I think that’s probably the most important business skill right now is our ability to lead change. I quote General Shinseki, “If you don’t like change, you’ll like irrelevancy even less.”

I think that’s our business reality because today, I honestly believe we are in the attention span economy where attention spans are shorter than ever before, so messaging, standing out in a crowded marketplace. Also, it’s dealing with change. We’re in exponentially changing times. I think what we’ve done before is not going to get the same results today or even beyond. I think that’s what organizations are looking for is the speed of change.

Erin: We will talk a little bit further on about this, but instead of looking in the rearview mirror, as you say, what used to work, be looking through the windshield because it’s much larger anyway. That’s going to be, I think the basis of a lot of what we talk about here today, which is why this forward-looking and being able to put behind the highs, and the lows, and the really unusual circumstances of the past few years and be able to try and see into the future just a little bit.

Neil: You remember the key word everybody used was pivot. Through the pandemic, it was pivot and pivot, but I really think the classic skills that we’ve learned to build our organizations to this point, there’s fundamental skills and then there’s some new skills. What the pandemic has done is it threw us into a virtual environment, but you still have the same personal cues, the speaking, the energy, the transferring the enthusiasm, which is so important in a virtual world if not even more.

In fairness, I teach at Niagara College here, and this will be the first year we’ve graduated students who have not stepped foot on campus, and most colleges, universities are saying that right now, but to that generation, they’re used to it. They get these changes. We can’t fight. We have to learn. It’s not what happens to us it matters, it’s how we react to it, really.

Erin: Of course, of course, Viktor Frankl said that the last human freedom is how we choose to react to whatever happens to us.

Neil: Man’s Search for Meaning.

Erin: What a great little book. Going back to the classroom a little bit, teaching via Zoom and the various different ways that you did that, how did that translate to how a businessperson conducts themselves? I understand that you were called upon by a very, very large company to help them to hold better meetings or to communicate better with their staff. I know that we are so far into this now that practically everybody has a pithy mug that says, “I’m on my Zoom call,” or whatever, but tell me if there’s any little nuggets that any of us has missed that we could put to use on Zoom or being more effective on our laptops or whatever camera happens to be in our house.

Neil: I wrote a report. It was very early in the pandemic. It was Elevate Your Virtual Meetings. I take it back to 2008 in the last recession, I was a managing partner of one of the largest training companies in the world. It was Dale Carnegie Business Group here in Canada. When the recession hit, it made us reinvent. What I did when the pandemic hit was go back to those lessons, but then I also started reading things like nonverbals, body language, improving my speaking ability, improving my vocabulary.

Executives who reached out to me during the pandemic, I took them back to not only the fundamentals, like don’t run a virtual meeting sitting down. Stand up, let them see your energy. Are you speaking to eyes or foreheads? Because if you’re speaking to foreheads, you’ve lost your audience. You have to change the delivery of your message.

Erin: What do you mean? One sec, Neil. Eyes or foreheads, are you talking about looking up into the lens on your laptop or what are you referring to there?

Neil: Right. You’re leading a group of people. Do you have people’s eyes looking into the camera because you have their attention or are you speaking to their foreheads? They’re busy on their phones or checking their emails.

Erin: Oh, oh, oh. Okay. All right. I get that.

Neil: That’s a concept I use when I teach public speakers is if you’re in a room full of people and people are checking their phones, you’ve lost the room. Stop the meeting. Go for a walk. Break it up. Get into a team exercise. It’s being spontaneous to lead and understand the influence you’re having on other people. I think that’s the greatest skill right now for any person in business, including REALTORS®, is learn to read a room.

Don’t forget, Erin, we’re working on the experience of any meeting or interaction. Even in this call for REALTORS®, it’s what people say about you when you leave the meeting, or are you having a meeting and then another meeting happens in the hallway after the meeting, then you have a culture problem.

Erin: What is the definition of leadership? Oh, this is good, but I’ll let Neil Thornton tell you, after all, he’s the expert. He’ll do that right after I remind you about CREA Café. You know it, right? It’s where you get the latest scoop on real estate news and industry developments, CREA Café. We hear a lot about workplace culture being a key driver for today’s workforce. How do you define workplace culture?

Neil: There’s a concept I use teaching marketing today is your brand now precedes you. That could be your personal brand or your organizational brand, but it’s what people say about you when you’re not in the room. I’ve been teaching leadership for 20 years; I finally came up with that definition. The definition of leadership is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.

That’s reputation, it’s testimonials, it’s videos. A previous colleague of mine always said, “When you say it, it’s bragging. When others say it, it’s proof.” I think we have to look at what we’re known as in our market, and that’s often a reflection of our culture, which includes people who not only work with us now but maybe people who have decided to leave, and they’ve gone on to other opportunities, what would they say about their experience working with you?

Erin, this is so important because an organization today needs to attract talent. We all know how hard it is right now to attract talent. It’s because of the retiring baby boomers, now moving into Gen X, you’re seeing this huge exodus due to the pandemic from the workforce. We’re now looking at these younger generations, the Millennials, the Gen Zs, their attention spans are different, but they can multitask, they can communicate, they’re wired differently than any other generation. Does your organization, is it going to attract that future generation? I think that’s the number one thing most organizations need to work on right now is attracting future talent and being cool, being seen as a company that’s cool.

Erin: That’s positive. To turn it negative for just a second, what are some of the common mistakes that leaders make in trying to create a positive culture? Can you think of any?

Neil: It’s sending some people off to a retreat, and you do some wordsmithing, and we have a new vision, mission, values, and strategic plan, and then you stand there, and you jump up on a mount, and you give a speech and people in the room are like, “I don’t have any relationship to this.” I’ve often used the term that every person in your company should have a fingerprint on where you’re going, their vision and values.

Then another thing I see a lot of people do is they spend far too much time trying to fix or convince people. Have you ever tried to send an angry person anger management? It usually peeves them off because they don’t have a relationship. For years, I did human relations training. I had people in a room who were voluntold to be there, or they were there to get fixed. You know they’re not going to put anything in that program, so we very graciously let them leave on their own terms. They had to go back to their bosses and tell them why, but I think we need to work on and focus on the people who are contributing to our business.

Have you ever noticed it’s not the bad people who leave a company? It’s usually the good people. When they leave, they give you a resignation, everybody’s surprised. That is a reflection of your culture is you need people to stay. If you’ve got a turnover or an attrition issue in your organization, you have to look in the mirror and say, “What is it about me that people are leaving this organization? What is it about us and our leadership team? Are we focused on the right things?

Erin: That’s where the problems that are the biggest obstacles come in. You’ve spoken of them. There’s ego and–

Neil: Ego and fear. It’s the only two things that’ll ever get in the way of anybody’s success. Fear, I’m going to be optimistic. I don’t see a lot of ego in business anymore. In the body language we call it splaying or taking up a lot of space, raised chins means I’m raising kill points, you’re not a threat to me. I like the book, The Power of Now and Eckhart Tolley said, “Ego and awareness cannot coexist.” I think if ego’s in check in an organization, then you go to fear. I know a lot of really great leaders who really want to succeed, but they can’t get themselves out of the way. They spend too much time in their own brain.

Erin: The same talent that got them to where they are, the overthinking, the taking care of details, and all that can also turn into an internal weapon.

Neil: Look at the definition of insanity. I’m doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. In 2022, that will not work. Maybe 10 years ago, you could maybe get away with that thinking, but today, it just changes so fast. I’ve got students graduating from college. What they learned in first year is almost irrelevant by the time they graduate. That’s the speed of change in technology and data. That generation, they understand that is I have to learn to change.

Now, I get this a lot in groups of people. I often ask people, “Hey, raise your hand. If you feel people resist change.” Everybody probably on this call, their hands would go up. It’s actually not true. In fact, people resist the uncertainty of the change, that’s perceived forced on them. A great book that I often turn to is Start with Why by Simon Sinek where if you’re leading change, you have to explain the why of the change, then the how, but a lot of people just go to the how and the tactics. Then, that’s why you get that meeting in the hallway after the meeting because people don’t know why they’re doing. Then, that creates apathy.

Apathy is a cancer that will kill your organization. There’s a word. You had mentioned to me earlier, Erin, about measuring culture. There’s a word that if you hear in your organization, just stop the bus. It’s the word they. When you hear that, that elicits and us versus them conversation, an underlying pattern of mistrust. As soon as you hear the word they, stop and say, “I thought it was we. I thought this company was we.” It’s amazing how vocabulary and linguistics tie into all elements of business right now.

Erin: We hope you’re enjoying REAL TIME. I loved this conversation because so much of what Neil says is fascinating, truly. Next up, we’ll look at what your potential client is saying without using words. There’s so much more to explore here with us on REAL TIME month after month. Subscribe wherever you enjoy the best podcasts for episodes with newsmakers, insiders, designers, and great minds who share their wisdom with you. You can also go to CREA.ca/podcast for more details.

Now, we’re back to our chat with Neil Thornton. Before we get on any further, I need to hear some of those body language things that about that you can impart to people who are conducting meetings. I got to hear this. We all do well.

Neil: The whole essence of body language for me is not if somebody’s lying. That’s out of integrity. For me, I use body language to be able to read a room and read the influence I have on that room so that if I’m doing a keynote and I notice that there’s some closed gestures, people are closing up. Remember the classic arms cross in front of the chest. For some people, that’s comfort. That could be a self hug. You watch for changes in body language.

If somebody has open gestures to you their hands are out. Remember shaking hands. Your hand is neutral, and people are open, and their body language is open, and they’re comfortable, and they’re tapping their feet. That’s comfort signs, or their legs are out front that’s comfort. People are comfortable, their head’s nodding. Then, when you say something, they lean back, they cross their arms, they fold their legs. They almost start to take up less space. You’ve just insulted them. You’ve said something that’s told their brain to close up due to comfort.

If you see someone rubbing or pacifying or tugging on a piece of clothing, that’s the brain pacifying. Adults don’t suck thumbs, but my eight-month-old grandson sucks his thumb because babies do that to pacify. Now, we say, “Adults don’t pacify.” Go to a University during exam week, you’ll see a lot of pacifying and people rubbing. That’s the brain trying to comfort itself.

That’s how I use body language. If people are opened, or closed, or comfortable, or uncomfortable, you read the cues, and it gives you a better ammunition when dealing with people especially, say for today if you’re a REALTOR® and you’re walking up to a home, and you see some nonverbal gestures. That couple is giving you the cues of their relationship with you and what you can and can’t do.

Erin: Excellent. Earlier on, you mentioned the idea of going away to some sort of an inspiration camp or whatever. You brought to my mind a vision board, the thing where you put your vision there. Part of your message, if I understand it, has been to make the messages on the board actually come down and be part of your lives instead of just making the vision, and then just letting it be, making the vision a reality. How does one go about doing that?

Neil: I go bananas here. Here we go. Far too many companies have these vague platitudes. They’re called wallpaper. They’re in the lobby wall or a banner in a website. They say something like, “We will exceed client’s expectations by offering the highest level of service and quality.” Right now, my finger’s in my throat because I’m going to throw up. That is nonsense you. How can you exceed client’s expectations when I just mentioned how quickly they’re changing? Real vision is a very clear picture of where we’re going.

Think about Bill Gates. When Bill Gates said every home will own a personal computer. At the time, a microprocessor was as large as an apartment, and Bill Gates said, “Let’s make it happen.” When JFK said by the end of the 1960s, we’ll put someone on the moon and bring them back alive. Martin Luther king, “I have a dream.” Steve jobs, “All of human knowledge on a handheld device.” Now, those are visions. A vision is a very clear picture of where we’re going. An organization creates that vision. Everyone’s involved. They believe in it.

Now, comes the hard part. How do we not just check this off a strategic plan and put it in a binder somewhere? What I often coach organizations to do is number one, agree on the vision, everybody agrees, and core values, vision, mission, core values are strategic goals, everybody, agree. Next week, please come prepared to have your name pulled from a hat. If you are pulled, you will be asked to stand and in front of your colleagues, give a specific example, including a date and a time, of when either you have lived the vision, mission, values or noticed somebody else doing it. Have a great week.

People now leave that meeting with the tension knowing that they could be called upon the next week to give real examples. You agree, then you assign, you come back, and you record successes, you publish it for the company, and then you celebrate successes. At the heart of every culture, the heart of everything is Maslow, the hierarchy of needs, the number one human need, self-actualization, the feeling of importance. In business, it’s recognition of a job well done, appreciation.

That vision is creating future-based action, future-based conversations, future-based commitments, which pulls that organization to innovate. Most companies are mired in the status quo at best, the current reality, problem-solving, firefighting. You know if all you do all day is problem solve, firefight, and babysit, all you produce are more problems, fires, and babies. It’s so true. Company leaders are frustrated because that’s where they find themselves. We need to focus on where we’re going. I say start with listening.

Erin: You’ve said that it’s strategic. Tell me about that.

Neil: As human beings. Here’s what we tend to do. When someone says something in a room, think about a meeting room you’ve been in, and someone says something, and what you tend to observe is people often say, “That’s just like, or remember when, or oh, let me tell you why that’s not going to work.” What happens is we tend to listen for what we already know.

When people feel judged in that environment, it’s like going home and let’s say you have a spouse or a partner at home, and you say, “Honey, would you mind sitting down? I like to talk about your performance over the last year.” “Neil, that’s ridiculous.” We do it with our employees. We do it in meetings. We judge people based on what they say, based on what we already know. Listening is often from the past. It’s based on what’s probable. That’s why innovation’s hard.

When you coach listening for what’s possible, instead of probable, you’ll hear what you’ve never heard, but you used the word earlier, Erin, which is really important. I get it from a book called the Art of Possibility by Ben Zander. He’s the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic. In the book, he ends one of his chapters, and it’s how I ended my book that I just wrote. It’s the two words, “How fascinating?”

It’s interesting, I just try it with groups. Guys, just say how fascinating. You listen from curiosity, not knowing. We tend to listen for what we already know from a right or wrong or should and shouldn’t be standpoint. Just admit we don’t know what we don’t know. That’s where innovation lies. I think that’s where every organization has to go now in 2022.

Erin: Listening from a place of I don’t know.

Neil: I don’t know. I admit I don’t know what I don’t know. I’m going to listen from curiosity, and I’m going to listen from innovation, not already knowing. That gets rid of the ego.

Erin: That’s coming back to Eckhart Tolle again.

Neil: How many meetings have we sat in where you just hear people justifying their opinions, they’re going around the room. They just justify themselves. Then, you leave the meeting going “That meeting was about as useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle. We didn’t advance anything. Far too many times, we do that.

Erin: When we return, building your team and what a strong team looks like. Are you a team player in your community as well, showing up and doing the work when volunteers and leaders alike are needed for great causes? Then why not share your story, using #realtorscare? REALTORS Care® is a national guiding principle, celebrating the great charitable work done by the Canadian REALTOR® community. Help raise awareness for those charities and causes you love. Again, use social media and the #realtorscare.

Let’s dig a bit deeper into specific team-building strategies and best practices. You’ve got so much wisdom and you’ve got great ideas. Let’s get the message through here. Some general characteristics of a strong team in your experience.

Neil: A lot of time, if not most of our time, is spent contributing to where we’re going, the vision. If you could picture a vision above your desk, and your desk is the current reality, the vision has an elastic. An elastic that anchors the vision to the current reality, and tension seeks resolution. What we put our attention to is what happens. If you hear language in your organization like, “I’m busy. I haven’t been able to do it.” Then, you hear weak words like, hope, try, maybe, I’d like to do it. Those are just weak languages.

Vision language is very strong. It’s, “I will. We are going to do this. Here’s what’s at risk if we don’t.” It’s amazing. One of the top things I get asked to do right now is how do I have robust and difficult conversations with people, the conversations we need to have that are honest. Again, there’s no conflict in reality. Check your premises. That was Ayn Rand that wrote that. Let’s get really honest with our dialogue. I’ve been going back to this a lot. It’s time to get human again, Erin.

Right behind me is a book from 1935. It’s an actual original copy of How to Win Friends & Influence People. It’s one of the most popular books in the world, and I’m seeing a lot of people picking that book up again. You’d mentioned earlier was Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning. When I work with people who are so stressed today, and they don’t know what they’re going to do, and they’re so worrisome, I pull that book out and say, “Read this book, and then you’ll know what stress really is.”

Erin: Tell me how it is that a nearly 100-year-old book from Dale Carnegie is still resonating.

Neil: It tells amazing stories of how people have built rapport, trust, respect with other people, how to gain willing and enthusiastic cooperation, how to change people’s minds without creating resentment, how to lead and inspire a team. I think those human skills, they just transcend the generations. They really do.

In dealing with a younger generation at the college right now, in the university world, it’s what a lot of students are looking for. They’re smart. They’re really smart students, but they want to strengthen their leadership and human relations. They also want to strengthen a relationship with failure and adversity. It’s a generational thing we’re dealing with right now, an entire generation that needs to understand failure.

Erin: What do we need to learn about the Gen Z?

Neil: You got to be careful. Just diversity right now is so prevalent. We live in a divisive society. We all know that. I think we have to stop. I often do this with a room full of people. I often say, “Hey, are we all committed here today? Please understand that all people are committed. We’re all here today. You all have a different worldview. I’d like everyone to close their eyes, put their right hand in the air, and point north. Everybody, open your eyes. You will see an entire room of committed people pointing in a different direction.”

You say, “Here we are. We all have a different interpretation of reality.” If somebody has number one, the courage to go to HR and say, “This is how I feel,” they’re saying that because they feel they can’t share it elsewhere. It’s a result of a number of interactions that have been unconscious by a number of people. Unfortunately, it’s the visit to HR that’s the end of the line, like, “Okay, we now have a complaint.” That brings us back down to if all we’re doing all day is solving people’s problems, we’re never going to advance.

I often say, as a leader of any organization, get really good at connecting what people’s commitments are and align the expectations. What do we expect of each other? If you feel you can’t approach your boss or you call them a boss or whatever, those aren’t modern organizations. Those are hierarchical organizations. You need to have flat equal organizations. Most CEOs I work with today, they don’t even have an office. They come in, they’ve got a tablet, they’ve got coffee areas, meeting rooms. They sit with people, and they coach and mentor. Those are great skill sets.

Erin: What’s the balance between coaching and knowing, Neil, when a team member just isn’t going to work out?

Neil: Let’s start with coaching. Coaching is a science. You and I have talked about it. It’s a certified science, but each person if they’re a business leader on this call has three skill sets. You have management skills, leadership skills, and coaching skills. All three are completely different. Coaching is about identifying people’s strengths that they might not realize they have. You ask great questions. People leave a coaching session with a heightened level of awareness and capacity to do more. That’s what a coach does. Leaders inspire a group, and managers manage things.

The rule of coaching is you never coach unless someone asks you. If you’ve got a progressive culture, going back to one of your first questions, what’s a sign of a great culture? You have a coaching organization. People have created their own business plans. They have their own visions. They know where they’re going. They see the value of being coached by an impartial person who’s there to help them, not to manage them. That’s the sign of a great organization.

Now, on the flip side of that, if we’re trying to maybe send ducks to eagle school, or we’re trying to fix problem people, one of the greatest pieces of business advice I ever got was hire slow, fire fast. If someone is just not prepared to go where the organization’s going, it’s okay to part ways. Help them with their career, move them to somewhere where they’re going to be happy. I think we spend far too much time trying to solve people. It’s just a complete waste of time today.

Erin: Coming up, choosing innovation through focusing on the future and when busy is not a good word in business. We live in a huge country, but REALTOR.ca brings everybody together. It’s the meeting place for buyers, sellers, and everyone in between. Right now, there’s like a quarter million listings there from trusted realtors. Of course, that number’s probably changed since I started talking with Neil. Check it out, REALTOR.ca, reliable real estate resources, all under one roof. Neil, how can leaders keep up with the speed of business today while maintaining strong human relationships with their teams?

Neil: I would say, the new speed of business actually means being aware of the impact you’re having on other people. I just wrote a book called Presence, Impact, and Influence. What I’m finding now, what I’m being asked is I’m approached by leaders, managers, owners, C-suite executives. This is what they’re saying to me, “Neil, I pretty much know everything about my job. I know everything about the academia, the tactics, all the strategies. I know what I’m doing. I’ve been doing it for years. I now want to raise my awareness. I now want to know how memorable am I. How could I be a better speaker? How could I better understand the room? How could I better lead and inspire a team?”

I think that’s the conversation that’s happening with progressive companies right now is people are saying, “I don’t want to keep doing what I’ve always ever done. I want to innovate, and I want to grow.” If you want to attract future talent, you have to have that future focused in your organization.

The other thing I often say too is get really good at interrogating language. When someone comes in a room and they say, “I didn’t get to it. I was busy, or I just didn’t have time,” that’s a great opportunity. Just stop the meeting and say, “Just tell the truth.” Then, “What? “Just tell the truth. It wasn’t important to you. Just say it.” Now, in my business, I’ve lost my filter many, many years ago, but having someone in the room that just stops the room and interrogates the reality and says, “Just admit it. You had said you were going to do this, and you’ve come back and said that you didn’t do it, which means you’re out of integrity with your group. You have to build that integrity back up, but your language was I just got busy.”

Busy is not a good word in business anymore. There’s no room for busy. Instead of saying, “I made a commitment to do it, I didn’t know what to do, or I wasn’t aware how to do it.” Okay, no problem. That’s a coaching conversation, but we let too many conversations go across a room without someone interrogating them.

Erin: It sounds confrontational though, Neil. It would be very difficult to conduct without seeming like you’re picking at, or picking a fight, or picking on them. Wouldn’t you agree? How do you think people would perceive that? Why don’t you just tell the truth?

Neil: You’re talking to a classic Dale Carnegie person that builds that trust and rapport with the groups. Then, I often say things like, “I need to say something. Now, I’m saying this because I love you guys. I love my clients, and I care about them, but I need to say something that needs to be said, and I’m saying this so it advances us.”

You’d be amazed Erin, most people, I think, “Oh, I’m going to get punched in the parking lot.” I get a phone call, and it’s usually that person that says, “I want to thank you because no one in my company had the courage to tell me what you said and because you said that, it made me realize that yes, you know what, maybe I am using weak language. Maybe, I have fallen into a rut.” That’s the value of a great coach. A great coach isn’t loved. A great coach has respect and integrity, and they help people advance their language.

Erin: You prefaced it by saying, I’m going to say something that comes from a place of love or whatever else that it does. That totally makes sense. How do you balance equitable treatment for those who’ve been loyal to you with the need to attract new talent? This is another lane that a lot of people are finding themselves in.

Neil: We live in a time where seniority doesn’t mean what it used to. I worked with an organization once that was a government agency, and a gentleman walked in a room and said, “25 more years, and I’m out of here.” I’m like, “Okay.” That’s apathy kicking in. What I often find is the people who have more experience, they’re tenured. What I often do is let them be champions, let them mentor, let them create a legacy, let them work with some of the newer performers that are coming on board.

It’s not just you as the leader, you delegate some of that mentorship to other people. They feel valued. They’ll actually go home at night saying, “Hey, I know I’ve been in this organization for years, but I’m finally being asked for my opinion, and I’m finally being able to contribute my knowledge to younger people.” They get a bit of a kick in their step.

Erin: Then, it’s so important for younger or newer members to a team to know that they can go to someone, that they can be vulnerable, that they could say, “Look, I ran into this, and I don’t know what to do about it, or what would you have done?” or to be able to mine some of that wealth of information and wisdom that’s just there for the taking.

Neil: Then, in my work, I’m very digital. I’m very black and white. You have to be when you’re dealing with teams. When someone fails, it’s only because of two reasons. Number one, they don’t know what to do, they don’t have the knowledge, or number two, they know what they need to do, but they’re not willing to execute on that. As a manager, just ask them, which one is it? Have we not done a good enough job giving you the skills and the knowledge to do this, or you need to do it, but you’re not necessarily doing it? Let’s talk about what’s really getting in the way. Maybe, you’re fearful. Maybe, there’s some procrastination issues that we need to deal with.

That’s what really great managers do, is you get down to the facts, and you take the personalities out of conflicts, and personalities out of this. Like, “Oh, well, this person thinks this about you.” That’s not healthy at all. Just say, “Let’s hold a mirror up to you. Let’s look at who you’re being as a human being. Are you a human being or a human doing? Are you running around just being busy?” Because most people right now are just so focused on what’s in front of their face.

If you put your hand right in front of your nose, the focus doesn’t change until you pull your hand away and you start to have a different perspective. I often coach, really, it’s interesting, I coach executive leaders to walk around the building, start learning how to meditate, prayer. Just do something that pulls you away from this day-to-day, work on you, and not just be so buried in the business because you’re not building any integrity with your team if you’re not available for them.

Erin: We’ll be back to Neil Thornton with a phrase he’s used earlier that’s worth repeating and why it’s vital that it sinks in for each of us, but before we do let me remind you, don’t miss our next REAL TIME podcast as soon as it drops. Subscribe where you listen to your favorite podcasts or just go to CREA.ca/podcast for more. Your brand now precedes you is something that you have said. We will get the title of your book and where to find it coming up. I hope that this is a big part of the book but tell us what those words mean. Your brand now proceeds you, and why it’s so important today.

Neil: This is the world we live in where when I say your brand precedes you, it means that I know everything about you before I meet you. That’s digital feeds, social media. I’m a huge proponent of LinkedIn from a professional standpoint, I’ve got just over 6,200 connections. I’ve got 104 written recommendations. To me, people often call me because they see that. They see a website that has testimonial videos on the first page because of what I said earlier when you say it, it’s bragging, when others say it, it’s proof. I’m always collecting people’s impressions of what I do.

My goal is to walk in a room and people say, “I’ve heard about the great things that you do.” I think that’s what every businessperson wants. That now involves building content, being a thought leader, doing keynotes with your industries and your associations. I’m seeing REALTORS® doing that a lot now. They’re now doing real estate news and market updates, and they’re putting themselves out there by being seen as experts in their field. They’re the ones that are working on their brand and how they stand out. I think every organization needs to focus on that right now is brand of your own personal reputation, your team’s reputation, and your organization’s reputation.

Erin: Well, this is a great time to mention the book. Would you tell us about it, how it came to be, what it’s called, and where we can find it, Neil?

Neil: It was a pandemic project. I had planned it a couple of years ago, but it turned into this 390-page behemoth. It’s called Presence, Impact, and Influence. In the book, I talk about leading change, executive reinvention, speaking skills, body language. People love the body language stuff, but it was really meant to be a reference tool for executives, owners, and managers to really focus on themselves and the impact that they’re having, the influence they’re having on others, and then the presence when they walk into a room. That’s all the human stuff. That’s why I wrote it. I’m so proud. I have it on Amazon.ca. Amazon, woo. It’s your friend.

Erin: It is. The title again is PII.

Neil: Presence, Impact, and Influence by Neil Thornton.

Erin: Well done. Excellent. Okay, Neil, let’s end this on an actionable end note. When it comes to team building and workplace culture, what is your go-to piece of advice? First off, for leaders.

Neil: For leaders, understand that your culture will eat your strategy for breakfast. That’s from Peter Drucker. That is so true. We spend so much time on strategy and so little time on culture, and dialogue, and conversations.

Erin: For your employees.

Neil: In the absence of a vision, we’re each just driven by our own agendas. We’re inattentive to each other’s needs and we inadvertently pull the win from each other’s sales. That’s a quote from the Art of Possibility, but it’s so true that not only do I need to align to my organizational vision, but I need to have a vision of my own and where am I going, and it needs to be a very clear picture. Also, have a plan to deal with the critics and the cynics and the sidelines who want to tell you why you can’t succeed.

Erin: There, we go to Teddy Roosevelt and it is saying about it’s the ones who are in the arena getting dirty and bloody and not the ones who are sitting in the stands that matter. I think you and I read a lot of the same things.

Neil: Yes, we do.

Erin: I think so. I haven’t read your book yet though. Maybe, you’ll read mine and we’ll do a book club.

Neil: I’ve already ordered it.

Erin: Wonderful. Now, for those who get stuck in a holding pattern, not going forward, not going backward, who is coaching you to move, who is stretching you? Seems to be the question that needs to be asked, yes?

Neil: I’ve often said, the greatest athletes in the world use coaches. People are going to laugh, but let’s say the Toronto Maple Leafs, they win a game. Well, the next day, they’re being coached. They’re not celebrating. They’re in watching films. The greatest businesspeople realize that, “Hey, I’m a good person, and what I’ve done is got me to this point, but it might not necessarily get me to the next point. If I can find an outside, non-biased, professional advisor, a business coach, a real business coach who will be willing to listen and not just give me advice. That’s what consultants do. They come in and, “You’d be more successful if you’re more like me.” I just find that arrogant.

A real consultant, a real coach says, “Hey, you’d be more successful if you’re more like you. Let’s look at your patterns. Let’s look at your underlying patterns that maybe you’ve lost or become unaware of, like your language that’s getting you what you’re getting.” I often say to business leaders, “You’ve got great tools. My goal is to give you more tools. You can go back to the originals, but I’m going to give you more tools to get the job done quicker and faster. It’s going to be up to you if you want to use them.” Whenever you try something new, it takes a bit of practice at first, so a great coach gets people through that learning curve.

Erin: I really feel like you gave us a whole bunch of new tools, and some good advice, and good insight on perhaps how to start using them more effectively. Neil, we are so grateful for you joining us here today and sharing your wisdom, your humor, your insight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Neil: I’m honored. Thank you, Erin.

Erin: Neil Thornton is President of the Thornton Group. If you’re looking for that book of his on Amazon, once again, it’s called Presence, Impact, and Influence. If it’s as great as this chat was, I am sure it’s worth a read. Thanks to Rob Whitehead for putting this together for Real Family Productions, to Alphabet® Creative for producing REAL TIME. I’m your host, Erin Davis, and we will talk with you again soon on REAL TIME. Bye for now.

Two First Nations women have secured funding to build an off-grid solar powered greenhouse to provide food security for their community. The Sagkeeng First Nation is a Treaty-1, 3 and 5 First Nation in the Eastman Region of Manitoba, where two young and ambitious members of their community have undertaken a project…

Historically, real estate has been a referral business, with business development driven by reputation. So, in an industry where word-of-mouth is your strongest marketing tool, how does modern marketing fit in?

On Episode 29 of REAL TIME, we’re joined by Priyanka Goswami, Executive Vice President of One-to-One and Customer Experience at award-winning creative agency No Fixed Address.

Priyanka joins REAL TIME to offer insights on how REALTORS® can take a focused approach to marketing their business, building a strategy that includes first-party data, personalization, success metrics, and more.

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Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for REALTORS® and about issues affecting REALTORS®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I’m your host, Erin Davis. Today, we have a guest you probably know and who’s here to impart some of his trade secrets to help you every step along the way. We might be living in a digital age, sure, but a career in real estate is still personal. Buyers and sellers depend on REALTORS® to not only guide, inform, and advise, but to assure and reassure an emotional need.

Succeeding as a REALTOR® requires a strong knack for connection, the ability to build trust, a commitment to immersing yourself in a client’s vision so you can help them achieve it. In short, you need to communicate.

We have one of Canada’s best communicators, long-time TSN anchor, and sports journalist, James Duthie, to share some valuable insight to help us all. On this episode of REAL TIME, we’ll explore a fundamentally human experience, conversation.

How can REALTORS® better connect with clients and prospective clients on a personal level? How can you find common ground to instill trust? What questions should be asked and not asked and how can you become a better listener? Pairing knowledge and expertise with the right conversation skills can give REALTORS® a professional edge and that’s what we are here to talk about.

Thanks so much for joining us, James. We’re so happy to be talking with you here, and not about sports for a change. How does that feel?

James Duthie: It is somewhat of a thrill, Erin. I love my job. I love the people that watch me on TV, but you do get a lot in my world of, “So the Leafs power play, what do you think?”

Erin: I bet. I do have to ask you. If you could only work with one sport, you’re going to be totally focused on one sport the rest of your career, which is it, James?

James: That answer would’ve changed over the years. I would probably say now golf because that’s become my obsession. I’ve always loved golf, but I think as I get older, it’s my favourite thing to play. It’s the only thing I really still play because my body’s gotten too old for hockey and football and I get too beat up for that. It would probably be golf.

I was at the Canadian Open back in June. I got to do the Masters back in April. There’s just something wonderful about being at a golf course. It just doesn’t feel as much like work even though it is. The days are very long there. I probably go with golf, but I still love my hockey and my football and everything else.

Erin: Well, you mentioned football, so let’s start out with that. Going back to early in your career and before your career, tell us how it took shape? Here you are now, one of Canada’s favourite sportscasters. James, where did it begin?

James: I think, Erin, like most sportscasters, you’d find our failed athletes and I was one of those. I was a delusional high school football player who truly believed that I was going to play for the San Francisco 49ers. I was going to go to Clemson University because I think I fell in love with a cheerleader who had a paw on her face when I was in about grade 11.

I was determined to go to Clemson after I saw that one cheerleader. I really thought, I mean, I was a decent high school football player, but I think it was somewhere along the way in grade 13, remember when that existed, that I realized I was barely 5’10” and 145 pounds with mediocre speed and talents, and the Niners probably weren’t looking for that. I remember going into my guidance counsellor’s office and saying, “I don’t think I can make it as an athlete, so I’d love to do something in sport.”

She plunked it into her computer. Sports marketing and sports administration came up a bunch of different programs and journalism came up. I guess I’d probably had it in my mind. I was probably one of those kids who did, turn down the TV and do play-by-play a little in high school, I suppose. That’s where I went and that’s how I ended up here.

Erin: How did you get noticed by TSN because somebody doesn’t just start at a major sports network, or did it even exist then?

James: Well, not when I started, no. Most sports jobs were the local guys at your local CTV or CBC station who had been there forever. I actually couldn’t get a job in sports. I was lucky enough to get a job at the CTV station in Ottawa right out of school but as a news reporter. I spent seven years covering politics and murderers and fires and boring city council meetings and all those things all the while still dreaming about doing sports. I got to do a little bit of sports in Ottawa. I guess that’s where, by luck, a TSN executive was watching me one night and gave me a phone call.

I sent them a tape and I had an audition. They actually didn’t hire me the first time. I took a job out in Vancouver and actually went back to news reporting. Then I remember I really wanted to live in BC and I told the guy when he said, “I can’t hire you now, but I’d love to hire you someday.” I said, “Well, I’m moving out to BC to take a job there. Don’t call me for a couple of years because I want to live the BC life.” He called me in six months and offered me what really was my dream job. Much to my wife’s chagrin, we moved back east.

Erin: Somebody, and I believe it was Oprah, who said that luck is when preparation meets opportunity. You got that opportunity, but you had the preparation. You put in those Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours probably with all those interviews and the boring city council and all that kind of stuff, would you say?

James: I think so. Actually, I really think that I don’t think I would have gotten the opportunity at TSN and all the opportunities I’ve had since without those years in news. Being a news reporter is a really fascinating thing. You basically go into work every day and get assigned a topic and your job is to learn as much about that topic in one day as possible. It’s a fascinating way to meet so many different people in different lines. It makes you a better interviewer, I think. It makes you a better writer for the job. I think that the skills I developed in news ended up being critical in sports and probably were the key to any success that I’ve had.

Erin: Not only do you have to be a good dancer and, of course, you’re tap dancing there in front of a live audience through all kinds of different circumstances and challenges, but you need to be a choreographer, the dance captain who, in the case of a panel, for example, people probably think as they do with anything that is done well, talent makes it look easy, but it’s not, James. What about coordinating panels and the different talents, “Go ahead, don’t be humble,” that are required to do what you do and make it look so easy?

James: I think it’s like being a traffic cop. You’re somewhat the conductor of this little four-minute orchestra in the intermission of a hockey game or after a golf round or a football game or whatever it may be. You’re so right. You get all these different personalities. Some guys want to talk the whole time. You get some ex-hockey players in there that it’s hard to get a couple of sentences out of. Your job is to balance those to maybe shut up the guy who wants to talk all the time and get more out of the guy who doesn’t talk as much and make it hopefully flow like a seamless, casual conversation.

In the end, that’s what you are, is basically a professional conversationalist, is to hopefully make some hockey topic or football or whatever it may be and just have a good conversation. Hopefully, a lively conversation, sometimes a debate, sometimes not, and that is hopefully appealing to the viewers at home. That’s essentially what I do. It’s hardly rocket science. I think sometimes it’s just basically trying to have good conversations.

Erin: Well, it’s almost like a dinner party too. If you are hosting a dinner party, I definitely either want to be at the table or to be listening in on the conversation because you’re bringing the best out of everybody who’s there at the table. Who’s the talker in your household, James?

James: Oh, unfortunately, my biggest problem, my wife often reminds me, is that I talk in my broadcast voice in dinner. You know what I mean? You’re not supposed to bring your work home, but I’ll be telling the story. I’ll be like, “Yes, so in the third period, you won’t believe what happened.” She’s like, “Honey, you’re not on TV anymore, all right? It’s just me and the kids and the dogs. You don’t have to yell like that.” I think in our family, it’s mixed around. I have some pretty bubbly personalities. I guess I do talk loud when I talk, but I’m actually fairly quiet, I think, away from things. I always feel like sometimes you have to play in these charity golf events when you are the “celebrity.”

Erin: Those used to be awful.

James: Oh, I know. I’m sure.

Erin: I used to get stuck in that fourth spot and I’m a terrible golfer, James, and they’re all looking to see, “Oh, is Doug Gilmour in our– Oh, no, it’s Doug.” James said, “Oh, we got this woman?”

James: I’m the same way you’re in where– First of all, they expect you to be a great golfer. I’ll say this right away that being a professional sportscaster does not mean you’re a great athlete.

Erin: More in a moment with TSN host James Duthie, exploring the art of conversation. You know what? It was at a charity event at which I first met James years ago. He was telling a very personal story while also helping to raise money for a cause that was important to our community. Of course, as a REALTOR®, you know what I’m talking about. If you’re ever looking for ideas on how you can light a spark of inspiration, follow Realtors Care on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Be sure to share your own stories using #RealtorsCare.

Back now to TSN’s James Duthie and the joy of having a virtual map, but also going off-road when you’re conducting a conversation.

Talking about someone who is talented as you are when you see someone who’s not, it tends to stick out now like a sore thumb. I think one of the things that we noticed and probably were guilty of early in our careers, and I’ll ask if you were, is having a set of questions and sticking to them. This translates to conversation of all kinds because we are talking about the art of conversation today, which means that this is where I’m quiet and let you answer and I will, but it’s that list of questions that some don’t deviate from. Tell us about those as road maps or guidelines or do you just chuck them out the window, James?

James: I think I learned that lesson in my first year of doing television at Carleton University and I was operating the camera. My colleague, my fellow student, was doing the interview and she had this wonderful long list of questions. She was very thorough, and I was just listening to what the guy was saying. She was so focused on getting every single question she’d written down out that she wasn’t listening to the answer.

It wasn’t like I was some brilliant interviewer then, but I remember clicking into saying, “Wow, she’s missing all these opportunities here to ask some good questions.” I guess that’s stuck with me. I think that’s probably the most critical thing, not only in interviews but in any sort of conversation is listening. When we do that and a lot of journalists, I think, do that is they write down their questions. They’re so focused on getting to that next question that they don’t really listen to the answers, which usually lead to the best questions.

I’ve developed in the habit over the years of doing interviews, I will write down questions and I still handwrite my questions because I always feel like there’s a better connection between the hand and the brain than if I’m writing them in my phone or on my computer or my iPad or whatever. I’m really old-school that way. Almost everything I do in television, I write down. We don’t use a teleprompter in our studio or anything.

I will just write down handwritten notes of some of the things I’d like to say. Hopefully, it comes out decently on TV, but I find I remember it better that way. I’ll write a list of questions for an interview and I’ll go over them a couple of times, but then I’ll never pull out that piece of paper. I’ll keep it in my pocket. Maybe I have some sort of safety mechanism that I know it’s in my pocket if I need it and if I freeze.

For the most part, I will just try to listen and ask the questions based on that. It served me well over the years. I think the great interviewers that you see on television, whether it’s somebody like Oprah or whatever, is the same thing, right? They’re just listening, and all their follow-up questions are the ones that get the best answers. I think that’s a crucial tool, whether it’s in journalism or broadcasting or anywhere else in life, is to just listen to the person you’re talking to.

Erin: I am listening and we’re going to keep talking about conversation, but I have to go back to something you just said. Are you a rarity or unique in that you don’t have a teleprompter in the studio, James?

James: I think it’s fairly common now with sports studio shows. I don’t think it’s very common in news. I argue from my industry that I think sports broadcasters are some of the best broadcasters out there because there’s such a live element to everything we do in sports. From the beginning, my first day when I got to TSN, I’d done some anchoring for sports and news at the station. There was always a teleprompter. I remember getting to TSN and my first job was hosting CFL football games.

They quickly told me there was going to be no prompter. I probably was scared at first, but quickly realized that that’s the best way to have conversations. That’s been that way for my whole career. If you’re watching the show SportsCentre, the highlight show, they have a teleprompter. Any of the other shows we do, do not. I much prefer it that way. Going back to what we were talking about, about having normal conversations, I think it’s really difficult to have those when they’re all on a teleprompter, right?

Erin: Absolutely.

James: “How are you doing today? What did you think about that first half of football?”

Erin: Dot, dot, dot.

James: Yes, and the other thing is I think it keeps your brain sharper because you are a little bit naked to the world. If you do forget what you’re going to say, there’s no backup there to help you. You’re just on your own. I’ve had the odd embarrassing moment in my career where I’ve completely forgotten where I was going. You teach yourself these tricks where you keep talking even though you’re not saying it. There’s one more thing I wanted to ask you just before we go. It pertains, of course, to the last subject you were– Kick in now. Kick in now anytime, brain, right?

Erin: That’s right.

James: We’ve all done that.

Erin: Just keep swimming.

James: That’s right. Usually, it eventually comes around. I think there’s been one or two times in my career where I’ve just said out loud on the air, “I’m sorry. I have no idea what I was going to ask you.”

Erin: That’s so relatable.

James: It’s okay, right? It’s human.

Erin: Yes, it does. It takes down that wall. What’s the foundation, James, for the way that you conduct a conversation in front of the camera? Then we’ll talk about off-camera in real life for the rest of it.

James: I don’t know that I’ve ever sat down, Erin, and come up with a set of rules or one way of doing things. Because I think when you do that, it also limits the scope of what you do. I prefer to not have that and to just– Look, it might be different if you’re doing an interview, which is the subject might be a little bit tough. You’re going to have to do more follow-ups or you’re going to have to challenge the person a little bit more.

I’m obviously prepared for that, but I don’t think I have any other sort of template either than to do it the way I do it in real life, which is if you’re sitting down talking to a friend on the couch or something, you’re not thinking about how the conversation’s going to go for the most part. Maybe I’ve had a few of my kids where I’ve had to think about the way it’s going to go. I don’t really follow any sort of set of rules. Hopefully, it comes to me naturally. If it doesn’t, well, then I fail a little bit.

One thing I do is you go off the person that you are interviewing, right? If they’re someone who you know talks a lot or tends to give you two or three-minute answers, you sit back obviously. Maybe there’s some body language you can give to let them know that maybe they want to wrap this one up to get to the next question. For the most part, if it’s the opposite, if it’s someone who doesn’t speak a lot, then I try to ask maybe more open-ended questions instead of pointed questions.

Maybe I’ll ask pointed questions to someone who tends to speak a lot. I’ll ask more open-ended questions to the person who doesn’t speak a lot. If it’s one of those hockey players who just speaks in little five-second answers and doesn’t give you much, that’s when maybe you use a little more of the: “Tell me about this,” that kind of question, which allows them to go in different directions.

Erin: REAL TIME returns with our conversation about conversation and TV sports host James Duthie about reading the room.

When it comes to feeling at home, there’s no place like REALTOR.ca Living Room. It’s the source for free engaging content for your social feeds. From key 2022 housing trends to design tutorials, Living Room is here to bring you entertaining and inspiring articles. We’ll continue our chat now with TSN’s James Duthie on REAL TIME.

I would imagine that the REALTORS® who are listening today have had experience with a couple where even one partner is ready to tell you about their history and what they want in a house and what they had and what they hoped for while the other one will be sitting there quietly contemplating or nodding or maybe not giving off any signals at all. Comfort is a big deal.

What you’re talking about, reading the room, reading the signs, who are you going to talk to, but having both parties comfortable, both you and the subject of your interview or the person you’re having your conversation within the case of a REALTOR®, that’s really important from the jump too, isn’t it? Sometimes it’s just rolling into it softly with whether it’s about the weather or anything like that. Tell us about that little bit of the art that you’ve used.

James: You’re so right. I think it’s probably the most important thing, particularly in television where people might not feel comfortable in front of the camera. Obviously, some of the athletes are so used to it, but some others are not necessarily. I think you always want someone to be comfortable. What I would do is maybe before the cameras are rolling or even after the cameras are rolling is try to talk about something other than the subject that we are about to talk about.

I try to avoid the weather, which is obvious, but maybe it’s a different sport. Maybe it’s something that happened the night before. Maybe it’s, “Did you see Top Gun yet?” that kind of thing. “Did you check out the new Netflix series?” whatever. Athletes, in particular, I think they get so bored with talking about their own stuff that they would love to talk about anything else but that. You have to be genuine, right? It can’t just be, “Okay, he’s just killing time before he gets to the subject.”

I think REALTORS® would have to be aware of that too, right? You can’t just go in there and say, “Oh, what a nice day. All right, let’s get down to the crux of the issue here,” right? You have to genuinely be interested in something else that they’re talking about. You have to humanize yourself away from the job, whether it’s talking about kids or dogs. I think my dogs probably come up a lot in conversation because I have crazy dogs.

Animals, kids, all those things, I think, are common bonds that we all have as humans. People always love to talk about their kids or their dogs or their cats or whatever that may be. I will, before an interview, try to talk about anything else, except the interview. The one other thing I will do, I think, for comfort though is be very upfront about what we are going to talk about. I don’t believe necessarily in the got-you interview that I don’t really have to do much anyway. It’s not like I’m 60 Minutes or something.

If I’m going to do an interview on a subject that is tough, I will tell the subject beforehand, “Hey, we’re going to get into all of this and I’m going to ask you about this, this, and this,” because I think, that way, they’re much more comfortable knowing what’s coming than if you suddenly throw something at them that they weren’t expecting right in the middle of the interview. Those are some of the ways that, hopefully, I make somebody feel comfortable.

Erin: Have you ever had anyone just take off their live mic and leave it on the chair and say, “No, I’m not talking about that”?

James: I don’t think I’ve ever had anybody walk out on me per se. That’s a great question. I don’t think I have. I’ve definitely had people very angry with me. The most awkward interview I ever had was with the legend, Steve Yzerman, who I’m a big fan of, who was, at that point, general manager of Canada’s Olympic team. It was the day they announced the Olympic team for the Sochi Olympics 2014.

Steve was also the general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning at the time and Marty St. Louis was the star for the Lightning. There was a big question going in about whether Marty would make the team. He was right on the line. The fact that Steve was his general manager, would that help him make the team? That was kind of the big story leading into that day. He ended up not being on the team.

Steve announced the team at this big gala event and then came right to us to do an interview with me. I asked him one question about the team. Then I said, “It must have been very difficult for you to leave Marty St. Louis off the team?” For whatever reason, Steve was not expecting that question and, I could tell right away, was extremely uncomfortable and said, “Well, I really rather talk about the players that are on the team.”

I came back and said, “Well, I realize that, Steve, and we will, but this is something that everybody was wondering about, so I need to get into it.” He deflected again and it got increasingly uncomfortable. I think if you asked my colleagues, they would say that was probably the most uncomfortable interview I was ever involved in.

I think Steve was mad at me for a while. In fact, it wasn’t until a couple of years later, I flew down to Tampa to do another story that I saw him and we hashed it out for 10 minutes. Hopefully, we have a better relationship today. He’s definitely very professional with me, but I don’t know if I’m his favourite interviewer. Hockey guys have long memories as you know, hold grudges for a long time, but I still think I did my job well there. I don’t think I did anything wrong. I’ve thought about it a lot. Should I have waited maybe two or three more questions to ask that?

Would that have helped? I don’t know. I’ll guess I’ll never know. For the most part, I haven’t had moments like that. Sports is fairly lighthearted. Most of the people you talk to don’t mind talking to you. I’ve had some awkward ones on NHL trade deadline, which is a 10-hour live show we do. Guys are getting traded, and their lives are being upended. There was one time where it all happens very quickly. A producer gets in your ear and says, “Hey, we’ve got so-and-so on the line. He’s just been traded.”

In this case, it was, I believe, Chris Stewart was the player and he’d just been traded from Buffalo to Minnesota. He comes on the line, and I said, “Chris, welcome to the show. What do you think about the trade?” He said, “I don’t know. Your guy just called me. I don’t know where I’ve been traded to.” This was live television. I said, “Oh, do you want me to tell you?” He said, “Sure.” I said, “You’ve been traded to Minnesota.” He said, “Oh, okay.”

He took it very well, but it was a few awkward seconds there where I was like, “Oh, how do I handle this?” Because even though it’s just a hockey show to us, lives getting upended, and children being pulled out of school and moved to another city in the middle of the year. Those things happened. In that case, it ended up being more of a chuckle than anything else because he took it very well, but lots of crazy things happen in live TV. For the most part, I haven’t had anybody slug me or walk out on me yet.

Erin: Is there a way to deflect or to avoid being shot as the messenger when someone has something that they have to impart like if you’d been telling Chris that he was going to some team absolutely nobody wanted to go to? I’m not even going to name one right now because it’s somebody’s favourite team, but is there a way for someone who has to deliver news, “The offer wasn’t enough,” or “You didn’t get the house”? Do you have any advice there, James? Obviously, you had to think on your feet there.

James: Yes, obviously, I think that would come up probably with REALTORS® probably a lot more than me where they have to say, “Hey, you didn’t get the house,” or “You’re going to have to come up $50,000,” or whatever that may be. I don’t deal with as many of those situations. Maybe it’s more so that you have to do an interview right after something devastating has happened to someone. I have to pick up the pieces with this person, right? They’ve just lost Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final after working their entire life to get there. Now, I’m throwing a microphone in their face and saying, “What went wrong?”

Erin: Right.

James: That is a challenging part of my job. Most people accept it, but it’s not easy by any means to do that. I do feel it’s always a little bit awkward. I think you have to combine normal human decency and pathos and sympathy. At the same time, still being a professional about it, right? You’re not going to let them cry on your shoulder. Perhaps in realty, but I don’t think I can do that on live TV. You have to find a way to be understanding of their pain and still do your job and ask the pertinent questions.

I think that only comes with experience really more than anything else where you just say, “Look, I know that this is a terrible loss for you guys, but we appreciate you coming out and talking to us. Tell us what happened on that game-winning goal, basket shot, touchdown,” whatever the sport may be. For the most part, I think people understand that you have a job to do. I don’t think that would be any different in realty. It’s not your fault that the offer didn’t get accepted. You’re just having to be the messenger. I think if you just communicate it in that professional way with a little bit of sympathy, then that’s the best you can do.

Erin: In a moment, finding that comfort zone when you’re having a conversation.

You can always feel at home connecting with local leads, growing your network, or finding valuable content for your audience at REALTOR.ca. Visit REALTOR.ca today, reliable real estate resources, all under one roof. Now, back to James Duthie on REAL TIME.

You’re so good at drawing parallels for our listeners here today, James. Thank you. When we’re talking about buying or selling a home, for example, it can be a nerve-racking experience. For a REALTOR® then, first impressions are just so important. Let’s draw some parallels for our listeners. What other techniques do you use to keep people comfortable during an interview? Do you lay the groundwork that, “Look, you’re safe with me. When the camera rolls, I’m not going to be sabotaging you”? I guess that might be your integrity and your reputation that precedes you, yes?

James: Right. I think you’re right on that, Erin. I think that you can only develop that over time, a trust that this guy is okay. Word gets around when you’ve been doing this for a long time that if you have a bad reputation or as someone that does the got-you type interviews or is looking to find some sort of clip that they’ll make it out to be more salacious than it really is and tabloid it a little bit, that sticks with you.

I think you have to earn that over time by doing good interviews and being trustworthy and I guess being likable to these people. That helps, but I think it does take time to establish that. Sometimes when I go to new sports, my job now is different than it used to be when I just used to be a hockey guy and I cover football and golf and soccer. I’m going to the World Cup in November.

Sometimes I do get into places where the athletes don’t know me as well as some of the others. It’s like you’re starting from scratch in developing these reputations. I have to go back to square one and try to establish trust with someone. Sometimes that’s hard to do in a very limited time window. If you only have 10 minutes with someone, 7 minutes through the interview and 3 minutes to get to know them, that’s a little bit of a challenge.

All you can try to do is do some of the same things I said before. Let people know that you’re not out to get them, that you’re a decent person, and that you’re just going to be doing your job here. I think, for the most part, people appreciate that, but it’s easier in the places that I’ve been longer where I know people or where word maybe have gotten around that maybe I’m an okay guy to have interview you or people that you’ve interviewed multiple times before, right?

That’s obviously the easiest part of it when, “Okay, I’ve had experiences with this guy before and he’s a decent guy. He’s going to do me all right.” There’s nothing more, I think, complementary than when someone requests you for an interview or says, “This is the one guy I want to do an interview with.” I had a really good relationship with Roberto Luongo, the former goaltender. He was involved in a major story once where he wanted to be traded by the Canucks, and then they ended up trading the other goalie and it was a massive controversy.

His agent called me and said, “Roberto wants you to come down and interview him in Florida.” He hasn’t done an interview since then. That’s because I had done stuff with him before. Some actually really ridiculous shtick-type stuff. Through that, we established a relationship. I think that’s part of it too, is I’m a bit of an idiot. I say that somewhat lovingly, hopefully towards me. We do a lot of silly comedy stuff on TSN. Hopefully, from that, people realize that I’m not the guy that’s going to nail you with– I hope I get taken seriously still, but at the same time that there’s a softer, lighter side to me.

Erin: A sense of humor on the side of it. Again, it comes down to that human connection, to not being afraid to let a tear well in your eye or to have some quiet in the conversation as well, and just let the talk breathe and not feel like you have to fill every second of the conversation.

James: Right, and that is massive. Something that I was probably not very good at in the beginning is a person would stop talking for a second and I’d be right down in there with the next question. I think sometimes the best answers you get are the second part of answers that come after a one or two-second pause where the person’s regaining their thoughts and then they want to say more.

I think that’s important on a TV interview or in life is to just let it breathe a little bit more. Sometimes that’s awkward with a person you don’t know that those seconds of silence, you feel that desperate need to fill them right away. If you can control yourself or we can control ourselves and not do that, I think sometimes that can lead to the best conversations that we have.

Erin: Certainly, our guest today goes into that column under one of our best. Back with James Duthie in a moment. Follow him on Twitter @tsnjamesduthie, D-U-T-H-I-E. So, you don’t miss our next REAL TIME, be sure and follow us. Subscribe or visit crea.ca/podcast to enjoy past episodes of REAL TIME.

Now, we wrap up our conversation with some great insight and tips on REAL TIME. It almost sounds like an oxymoron to say an active listener because listening to so many seems passive, but how important is it to be an active listener as part of being a good conversationalist, James?

James: I think it’s everything. It certainly is in my business is to– and it goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning with the whole list of questions, is you need to hear everything that they are saying. The conversation has to flow from that, right? That doesn’t mean that sometimes in the middle of a conversation, it can’t take a complete left turn. If you’re tired of talking about one particular subject, that’s okay.

Active listening to me is engaged listening as much as anything else. The biggest sign of engagement is eye contact. If you’re having a conversation with someone and they’re on their phone, I can get away with that with my wife or my kids maybe or my best buddies when I’m on the golf course. If you’re with a client or if I’m doing an interview subject, it doesn’t fly and it doesn’t do you any good either.

I think my dad told me when I was going to my first job interview when I was 17 was firm handshake and look them in the eye. I don’t think that’s any different. All these years later is to show that you care about what the person is saying. Eye contact is as important as what you’re doing with your ears.

Erin: Watching the body language too. Whenever I see someone with their arms folded and their legs crossed, it’s like, “Oh, you are closing off. You don’t want to have this discussion,” but the reverse of that is leaning in and giving them all of you, which you’re very good at doing.

James: Steve Yzerman definitely had the arms crossed that day. You’re right. I would say if I have one technique, I don’t really think about this stuff much. I suppose in interviewing, the one technique I would have with body language would be to lean in. I think that just says to someone that you care and that you’re really interested in what they say.

I probably do it naturally. I don’t really think about it anymore. It’s not like I sit down to do an interview with Erin Davis and I make sure I’m angled at 45 degrees towards her. I think just naturally when you care and when you’re engaged that you do that a little bit. I think it works. Again, I don’t think people should necessarily practice this at home. I think, hopefully, it’ll come quite naturally.

Erin: I’d like, James, if we could tie things up on an actionable endnote here. What is one thing that you suggest our listeners do to work on their conversation skills? Give us one for the road, would you?

James: Two things. I would say going back to earlier in our conversation, that listening is the number one thing, that becoming a good listener will make you a good conversationalist. They come together. Also, I would say, and this is about as simple as possible, is that I remember one of my bosses telling me early in my career that you have to be yourself. I think that I was being too serious. There was a point in my career where I was trying to become Walter Cronkite or something.

That wasn’t me and he had to pull me aside and said, “Look, you’re a funny guy. You’re a lighthearted guy. You’re a nice guy. Just go back to being that guy on TV.” I think it’s the same in all walks of life, is that you have to be yourself, that most people are pretty astute and can see a phony a mile away. I think the most important part of any conversation is to be yourself. That brings together everything we were talking about.

The casual conversation beforehand where, hopefully, you’re yourself and you’re talking about something in your life that maybe relates to something in their life. That part is absolutely critical. If you’re funny, then be that way. Don’t necessarily try to be Mr. Serious. If you’re serious, don’t try to be funny. That’s probably a bigger thing. Listen and be yourself. I know those sound pretty simple, but I think we forget about them sometimes.

Erin: You also have suggested that being self-deprecating has really helped in terms of your likability. You wouldn’t have put it that way, but I will. Your likability, your relatability, and not coming in and saying, “Look, I’m the person for the job. I know more about this than anybody, so you’re going to listen to me.” It’s just a matter of parking the ego and then just the humour that you say is so important. That’s the great note to remember too.

James: Yes, it’s probably my fallback, that self-deprecation and there’s probably some deep– If I got in front of a psychologist, they’d probably say there is some sort of insecurity or lack of confidence that leads to these things, but it’s always been my way of going about things, but I think it can disarm people, right? If you put your flaws right up in front of them instead of trying to be the Mr. or Mrs. Perfect, Mr. Confidence, then I think sometimes that can break down walls pretty quickly and help to better conversations and better relationships.

Erin: Well, I can’t think of how this could have gone better, James. I know I will when I’m trying to get to sleep tonight. I’ll think, “Oh, I should have asked him this or this or this.” No, you were a tremendous guest. We’re just so thrilled that you could find time in what is always your busy season because that’s the life of sports, right?

James: They do never end. I do get a little bit of break in the summer here, so it’s not too bad. With COVID, hockey goes later now. We have a World Junior tournament in August, which makes no sense because it’s supposed to be a Christmas time. You’re right.

My schedule doesn’t make any sense anymore, but I love it. I’ve been doing this now for, I don’t know, 30 years, Erin. My dad once told me, “Just find something that when you’re driving to work every day that you’re not going to be like, ‘I don’t want to be here.’” I’ve been so lucky to find something that I really love going into every day. I’m incredibly blessed that way.

Erin: It shows and that’s a wonderful thing to see too. You are the distraction, you’re the enjoyment, you’re the entertainment and the information. Thanks for providing all of those things for us today, James. We’re so grateful.

James: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I greatly appreciate it. I hope I’ve given something to all the REALTORS® out there. I’ve certainly used them many a time. I’m hopefully stuck in this house forever because I told my wife after the cost of the rental, we did a few years ago that they’d have to carry me out of here.

Erin: Yes, toes out. Thanks, James.

James: Thank you for having me.

Erin: REAL TIME is a production of Real Family and Rob Whitehead and Alphabet Creative®, brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association. I’m Erin Davis and thank you again for your time. We’ll talk to you soon on REAL TIME.