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Erin Davis: Hello and welcome to episode 31 of REAL TIME, Presented by CREA, the Canadian Real Estate Association. I’m your host, Erin Davis, and I cannot wait to dive into today’s conversation with you. It’s informative, insightful, and so much fun.

Canada frequently ranks as the best country in the world for its quality of life, which comprises our job markets, economic stability, family friendliness, safety, and a whole lot more, as you know. What does it mean to live in Canada as someone whose roots are not quite as deep? What lifestyle trends might have an impact on Canadian’s real estate decisions?

Today, on REAL TIME, we are joined by Canadian media figure Lainey Lui Etalk correspondent, author, founder of LaineyGossip.com, and cohost of CTV’s The Social, known for her elevated sociological perspective on the value of pop culture, not to mention her business acumen. Lainey joins REAL TIME to unpack the unique cultural trends and behaviors that might be shaping Canadian lifestyles plus a whole lot more.

Lainey, welcome. It’s so good to have you here on REAL TIME. We’re so excited. Thank you.

Lainey Lui: Thank You for having me.

Erin: Well, you have said to dive right into it here, you’ve said that your work covering celebrity culture, which you do exceptionally well in your LaineyGossip.com website, helps you better understand humanity. Now, can you start off by explaining that a little bit?

Lainey: Well, I think that there is definitely a stigma against celebrity culture, but also celebrity gossip and just gossip in general. I think that gossip is misunderstood or has been misunderstood, but we are starting to come around. Academics from Oxford University to Stanford have all put out papers and research on gossip as a very, very primitive and human form of communication. There is a sociological value to gossip because what gossip is, it’s an exchange of information.

When we are talking about Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Aniston, the never-ending celebrity triangle. In that conversation that you have with somebody, you can actually find out what they think about marriage, about infidelity, about divorce, about women on women combat. It’s more of a reflection of what your value system is than what those subjects are. Brad, Angelina, and Jennifer. Is the conversation really about those three people or is it– the conversation does it become about what you think of marriage, what you think of cheating, what you think of building a family?

When I say that celebrity culture helps me understand humanity, it’s because gossip can’t exist in a monologue. When you’re gossiping, you’re always talking to somebody else, when you’re talking to-

Erin: That is interesting.

Lainey: Right?

Erin: Yes, you’re saying it holds up a mirror to ourselves. What you talk about is who you are. That’s very interesting.

Lainey: That’s right.

Erin: It has been around forever. First chronicled, I think in the year 1,000 or so by someone who put it in his sermon. Shakespeare wrote about it, and gossip has been seen as the voice and the empowerment of the powerless.

Lainey: Yes. When done responsibly, of course, like everything gossip can be negatively performed. There’s bad gossip and there’s good gossip. I try to gossip well. I have gossiped badly before. Occasionally I’m sure I gossip badly as we all do. We’re never going to get it perfect. At its core, gossip is a form of communication. It is an information exchange. That’s why it’s valuable.

Erin: Okay. While you’re talking about communicating and getting it right and trying to get it right every time, let’s talk just for a second. We’ll pull off at social media. You have been doing social media probably almost as long as it’s been around, if not since pretty close to the beginning. How does one avoid the pitfalls you navigate those shark infested waters every day Lainey, and we know that the entrepreneurs who are REALTORS® and use social media to get their messages out are probably saying, “Okay, this woman knows what she’s talking about. What can I learn from her about social media?” They’re not talking about me.

Do you have anything, any wisdom to impart as we depart from our conversation in a way?

Lainey: I don’t know if this is wisdom, because I’ve certainly made my fair share of mistakes on social media and have been called out for it. I don’t know that anybody is an expert. We all step in it. If I had to give any advice, I would say this. I think that before posting anything on social media, it’s always a good idea to hit pause. You don’t have to do it in that moment. You can walk away from it. I find that a lot of people who make mistakes on social media, if they could have just benefited from a little bit more time and a little bit more thought, I know it’s an immediate thing. It feels like it’s operating like, “I have to say this right now.” But do you have to?

Erin: Right?

Lainey: Do you have to? I think that number one, probably lots of people have said the same thing. It’s just for some reason doesn’t get executed. It doesn’t, people don’t follow that rule. I want to say that as the basic. Number two is when we’re talking about REALTORS® in particular, Erin, in my neighborhood, and I don’t know if it’s the case in yours, REALTORS® have been, you know those signs that they put up on the lawn, the “for sale” sign?

Erin: Sure.

Lainey: Typically, like they have their name and a lot of REALTORS® will have their photo. Some REALTORS® in my neighborhood have been using their baby photos. It’ll be like Jan Wong and instead of Jan Wong in Jan Wong’s REALTOR® suit, or outfit, shift dress, whatever. It’ll be Jan Wong as a toddler. It’s hilarious.

I think the reason I’m bringing this up to you, Erin, is because that spirit of creativity, whoever did that first and somebody else copied them, and more people copied them, that spirit of creativity, I think is what people need to tap into when they want to use social media for the real estate industry. Something fun, something really, really fun and funny. I think that if we can get at the essence of that on social media with the real estate industry, I think that would be a social media account that really sings

Erin: Excellent. It’s a matter of standing out. That’s what you do with all of your media positions and LaineyGossip.com and everything you’ve done for all these years. Now, Lainey, what have you learned about Canadians? What kind of people are we from your experience over the years in media? Because it’s not just one way, it’s not just you projecting,

Lainey: Well, as you just said, Erin, it’s not just one way. What I’ve learned about Canadians are we are not a monolith. For a long time, I think that we all fell into that trap that Canadian meant one identity, and that stereotype was hockey, beer, saying sorry, polite. I think that those definitions are too narrow now. I do also think that Canada has realized that that definition is too narrow. That we are not all into hockey. That we’re not all into beer. That some of us can be rude. Some of us can still be polite, but sometimes we’re not nice all the time.

To answer your question, what I’ve learned about Canadians, I think that when we start to look at ourselves as Canadians as not a monolith and not one thing, it’s actually quite freeing. We don’t have to be trapped in this reputation of hockey, beer, beavers, maples, and all of that. When we accept that we don’t have to be all those things, the possibility is endless for what we can be.

Erin: You speak from a place of vast experience having come to Canada. Your parents did, and then they had you. You were born here, and so you grew up same day as me, by the way. You and I share a beautiful birthday. As the daughter of immigrant parents, Lainey, what was that experience like for you?

Lainey: Well, my parents came to Canada from Hong Kong because they felt that they would have more opportunity here in Canada. They felt that if they had a child who was born in Canada, I, who ended up being their only child, would essentially be able to pursue any dream.

In terms of my experience, the bonus is that I have these parents who sacrificed and left everything behind to give me everything that they couldn’t have or to give me everything that they hoped to have and couldn’t. That’s wonderful. It’s so beautiful. What a gift. I think sometimes the downside can be that I am carrying all their dreams too, and that is a really complicated thing to live with.

Erin: Especially as an only child. It’s not like you have siblings, but look at you though. You have risen to the absolute heights of Canadian media and beyond. You’re also a published author, we should say. You have a book that details your relationship growing up with your mom and being the daughter of immigrant parents so the pressures, the burden on your shoulders to make good on their promise to each other and to you, as you say, was huge.

Lainey: It was huge and I think that that’s not every immigrant’s experience, but it probably is a common one and I think that I just happen to be someone in most cases who thrives under pressure. I don’t know if that’s because of whatever my parents gave to me and shaped me, but I also know that there are people, not everyone operates that way. There are people who thrive in more stable and peaceful conditions, and that may be better that, I don’t know.

It’s not a competition, but I think that in those cases, it can be a struggle. It can be a struggle to have your parents experiencing an entirely new thing and then you as a child having to wear that as well, having to absorb that stress from them.

I imagine for a lot of people, that also has been very formative and not necessarily in the best way. I think that immigrant stories are also not a monolith and I think that it’s going to be more and more valuable for all of us to hear from all of those faces of what immigration looks like.

Erin: When we return. Lainey Lui shares her own family’s experience in coming to Canada five decades back. Maybe it’ll resonate with your story. From a close eye on the economy and government to economic stats and analysis, CREA has you covered, enhancing your knowledge and giving you the best information to pass along to clients. Learn more about what CREA does for you @CREA.ca. Now back to Etalk correspondent and co-host of The Social, as well as first generation Canadian, Lainey Lui on REAL TIME.

Getting back to the newcomer experience and moving on to the general population if we can. Canada, we like to think is a great country for newcomers. Tell me about what your family’s experience has been as newcomers in Canada.

Lainey: This was in the ’70s and so their experience was, it was tough. The language barrier was definitely an issue. Having qualifications that sometimes didn’t transfer from one country to the other was also an issue. Think about when we go traveling, you need to orient yourself. I’ve had experiences going traveling and I’ve gotten lost just walking outside of my hotel and for my family, orienting themselves was a challenge. Figuring out how to get from one part of the city to the other, all of those things on top of a language barrier and a culture barrier, that for sure was challenging.

Was it worth it in the end? Both My parents would say 100%. In REAL TIME, it was a struggle and I think that right now, I definitely think that the situation, there’s more diversity.

There’s definitely more communities especially in the Asian diaspora, the Chinese diaspora, that can make people feel more at home and certainly in other backgrounds too. Back then there was a time when it was harder to find support. It is, and those challenges still exist, but I’m hoping that we’re much more aware of them in talking about them more like, for example, on this podcast where institutions and systems can change to accommodate everybody.

Erin: What are some of the things 50 years later after what your parents experienced, but now what should people be aware of Lainey, when we’re trying to make new Canadians feel at home?

Lainey: I think that Canada is known for its kindness, and I don’t disagree that that is Canada’s reputation, but I do think that we still, in this country, racism does exist. Alienation does still exist, making people feel other certainly exists. I think we can improve on all of that.

In terms of what we can do better and how we can make more people feel at home, maybe it goes back to that whole thing about Canada being a monolith and having to look one way or having to act one way or be interested in one way. I think it goes back to that where I think in our minds, if we can get past, if we close our eyes, what does a Canadian look like to you or sound like to you? If we can get past one image, then I think that will translate into our actions and how we react to people.

Erin: Change is so difficult on both sides.

Lainey: I know.

Erin: Lainey, you speak and you listen for a living and you talk to a lot of people who are from outside Canada, and I think they do see the stereotypes if they see us at all. Is it realistic how people perceive us?

Lainey: I think we should want to make it realistic, but I don’t think it’s real now. Does that make sense?

Erin: More of an aspiration.

Lainey: I talk to a lot of people. It’s my job to interview people just like you. The people I interview who are not from Canada, they do have this dreamland ideal version of what Canada is, that we have this amazing kind country and we’re so polite and everybody’s happy here.

I think that’s a beautiful dream but I also think that that reputation for Canada holds Canada back because if we think we’re perfect, then we’re not. Why should we try to get better and progress? I think that in buying into that stereotype and that reputation of being the best, it can be a blocker, a barrier to listening.

If we already think that we’ve achieved ideal, we have set the standard in what a nation should be, then criticism doesn’t get heard. Other voices who put their hands up and be are like, “Hey, but it’s not great for me.” Those people aren’t listened to. I think that reputation for Canada from thinking what I hear from people and listen, I think we’re all a little bit aware of it.

We pat ourselves on the back when some celebrities comes to Canada and says in an interview, “I love Canada, you guys are so great here.” Our chests get puffy and we’re like, “Yes, we’re awesome.”

Erin: You see us.

Lainey: Sometimes I think that that could– well, it’s great to hear, obviously. I do think that sometimes it can hold us back from progress.

Erin: The good being the enemy of the best or the better. I have to tell you, a few weeks ago there was a list that came out that Canada is the number one country in the world that people would like to move to and one of the responses when I retweeted was, “Yes, it’s true. I’m sick of the complainers, and if they don’t like it, they can leave.” We’ve heard that trope forever so I answered, “Or they can stay and help us to make it a better country.”

Lainey: Love that.

Erin: It was a pretty wishy washy stand on my part, and I don’t think I’m going to get the order of Canada for it, but you’re not allowed to put your hand up and say, “But over here there’s this, this and this.” You have spoken, Lainey, about choice, the word choice and what it means to you really is what you value most about living in Canada. Can you elaborate on that for us?

Lainey: I should say that for me, and a lot of people in my position, the fact that I have choices is a certain privilege, and so I see that, and I 100% appreciate that a lot of people don’t have the choices that I do. For me in my life, yes, I have the privilege of having a choice with the kind of life I would like to lead. I right now have chosen to live in a metropolis. I live in a huge city that suits my life. Yet within that huge city, I live in a neighborhood that is quite quiet and when I choose to go to the film festival and have a pretty wild, fun, loud, lit up life for two weeks in a row during the film festival, I can do that. Then when I choose to hunker down in my quiet little neighborhood and only venture three blocks in every direction for a few weeks, that works too. Canada provides that for me. The Canada where I live gives me those options and that choice. It can be a big city and feel like a tiny town at the same time.

Erin: You truly have lived the best metropolitan experiences outside of, say Montreal and Ottawa, Halifax, all of the other major metropolises that may think, ”Hey, what about us?” For Toronto and Vancouver, just looking at the restaurants and the variety of flavors, it’s mind boggling. It’s almost too much if there can be such a thing because there is so much choice. Again, it goes back to that word choice. You’ve honed in on monolith and choice which are almost too extremes.

Lainey: It’s true. I think that the diversity of our population allows for those choices. You just mentioned restaurants. Even something as simple as where to eat or what to eat. We in this country have those choices. I think that to go back to how that contrasts with what a monolith is, it would be the equivalent of eating the same meal every single day or endlessly.

When we talk about choice and we talk about diversity, it naturally just makes things at least in my opinion much more interesting to be able to eat a variety of different foods, to be able to have a variety of different conversations from people who are from a variety of different backgrounds so that you’re not just surrounding yourself with the same because you don’t grow when it’s same.

Erin: Exactly. Someone said, I don’t know if it was Will Rogers or who it was 100 years ago that said, “If you want the same things, stay home.” If people who go to Europe or Asia or whatever and say, “Well, they didn’t have the same food.” Well, then you should have stayed home.

Lainey: Exactly. Then I think within our homes too, we can start exploring a variety. Home is home but within our homes, let’s say our home community, our home neighbourhoods, it only enriches our experiences and our children’s experiences with a different perspective. I think that Canada is a country that has that potential that can offer that framework to families and to its residents.

Erin: Coming up, the changes in the way we live our day-to-day lives with co-host of The Social on CTV, Lainey Lui. Whether it’s helping victims of wildfires in BC, raising big money for a crisis helpline in Fredericton, or serving up the comfort of home in Ottawa, Guelph, Medicine Hat and Durham, REALTORS® Care. We know you do. Share your story on social media with the #realtorscare and spread the word. If you don’t, who will? Oh, and by the way, well done. You are what being part of a community is all about.

We now return to our really fun chat with Lainey Lui, author and host of LaineyGossip.com.

How has life in Canada evolved over the years in the way that Canadians live, work, or play? Obviously the last couple of years, some have said that two years of COVID have set us ahead five, 10 years in where we were going. What have you personally seen, Lainey?

Lainey: For me and you brought up COVID and for me in my life and lifestyle, I always loved my home. A big part of that is because I share it with someone I adore and our dogs. This is the best place for me, my home. I think that during the pandemic, I spent two years working from home every single day. Home became even more of life. Home was everything and you become so much more intimately connected to your home. Home also in that case includes your neighbourhood.

Again, I’ve always loved my house, I’ve always loved where I live in my neighbourhood, but I became obsessed with this neighbourhood where I live because Jacek and I, my husband were out with our dogs constantly.

In lockdown, we couldn’t do anything. The only thing a lot of us could do was walk. I became obsessive about my neighbourhood. I love the streets, I love the corners, specific corners of our neighbourhood. I loved the shops and so I wonder if other people can relate. I became much more engaged in my local community and wanting to support local businesses.

I think we saw that with those light up hearts that show up in the windows and it’s not that I wasn’t into supporting local businesses before, but it became almost a purpose for us. I think it was that way for a lot of other people where you wanted to make sure to take care of the businesses that made your neighbourhood special.

Erin: The pizza joint that doesn’t have a jingle you can sing. That may not be there if you don’t buy from them.

Lainey: That’s right. The small coffee shop. That restaurant that makes the best ribs and it feels just so good to walk in there on a Sunday night. The bakery, I could go on and on.

Erin: You are making me hungry, Lainey.

Lainey: I think that for me that now is going to be a lifestyle. I’ll always want to engage in a much more meaningful, purposeful way with my immediate community. I think that that’s what really for me personally changed in how I live now because of the last three years.

Erin: How does Canada’s vast mix of cultural and ethnic backgrounds enrich the fabric of the country? We’ve been talking about inclusiveness and embracing and exposing yourself and all of these different experiences. What’s in it for us as a country and not just as individuals, Lainey?

Lainey: I really love this question because this is an important conversation. It can be a very serious conversation because this is a very, very serious problem, sometimes diversity and representation and people feeling like they’re not included and othered and of course it’s serious and it’s pressing.

That said, I think in so many of the conversations around diversity, what we need to also focus on is that the more diverse a place is, the more fun it is. We’re all here to have fun. We’re all here to maximize the joy in our lives. Really there’s nothing more joyful than to have a place where everybody is able to participate and share, where you’re learning and exploring and being exposed to different points of view, to different music, to different cultures. That means different food.

To go back to that example about eating, again it’d be so boring to eat the same thing every single day or just listen to the same album over and over again. You were in radio for how long. Imagine, Erin, if you just played the same album all day during your shift.

Erin: I hear you.

Lainey: Right?

Erin: Yes.

Lainey: I think that what we also need to remember and focus on is that diversity means fun. I think that there are so many people out there who have this misconception. It’s totally wrong that diversity means that your life will go badly or that things will change for the worst. That is not the case.

Erin: It’s not being taken away from you. It’s adding to you.

Lainey: Yes. It’s fun. It’s more lively. It’s more vibrant. I think that, that is what Canada can be better at in terms of we’re already a country that, yes, is rich in diverse cultures and people from different backgrounds and how many languages we can hear just walking down the street in so many of our cities. You can hear just on one city block, especially in Toronto, one city block, you can hear dozens of different languages. That is wonderful. We can make it more so, we can make it even more fun.

Erin: Up next on REAL TIME. Call it feng shui, superstition, whatever you want but do not dismiss the list. Loving this episode? Me too. Catch up on all of the previous episodes and seasons of REAL TIME by just going to CREA.ca and putting REAL TIME in the search bar. Then subscribe, so you don’t miss one informative and entertaining minute. I’m Erin Davis, so I get to be your host for this. Now back to Etalk correspondent, author Elaine Lui of Listen to the Squawking Chicken: When Mother Knows Best. What’s a Daughter to do? Lainey Lui.

I’m going to take advantage of you being here with me because you’re going to enlighten us all a little bit about some of the things that REALTORS® should be aware of when they have a client who comes from a different cultural background. In your case, I’m thinking feng shui and the stories that you tell about Lainey’s checklist. This could be a whole nother podcast, but take us through it. It’s hilarious. Go ahead, Lainey.

Lainey: Listen I like many homeowners had a checklist. It’s just that mine was mostly determined by my ma, therefore, mentioned squawking chicken. I wrote a book about her.

Erin: Oh she’s a squawking chicken. This I didn’t know.

Lainey: She is, yes. The title of the book is Listen to the Squawking Chicken because squawking chicken is actually my ma’s nickname from the time where she was a kid because she’s so loud and opinionated and assertive that all the villagers and her family called her a squawking chicken. You couldn’t ignore the squawking chicken. My parents are Chinese. My ma is deeply Chinese superstitious. We have our own set of superstitions and we have our own zodiac. My ma believes deeply in feng shui like many other Chinese families.

My checklist for our home was mostly determined by Chinese feng shui principles. They can be very complicated. There are some people who go so far as saying I need my front door to face east or west or whatever.

Now for my ma, she was like, I’ll give you an example. One of the things that she said to me was that, you cannot buy a house where the staircase faces the front door because what that means is your luck will fall down the stairs and tumble out the door. You won’t be able to keep luck in this house.

Erin: Your chi is gone, it’s making a run for the door. I know that one well. Okay.

Lainey: For a lot of Chinese families, for a lot of Chinese people looking for a home, they don’t even want a tree on the front lawn because that’s considered a blocker like it will block. If you have a big tree sitting outside and for some people, it doesn’t matter. For some Chinese families, this doesn’t matter. That was one of the things too where she was like, “You really shouldn’t have obstructions in front of the house.”

Anyway, again to go back to the staircase, we told our REALTOR® here’s our budget, here’s what we’re thinking, here’s the size but one thing you can’t show us, we don’t want to see is a home with a staircase that goes right out the front door, faces the front door because I can’t live here. We went to see all these homes and we put an offer on a couple and it didn’t work out. We were living in Vancouver at the time and we were looking for a home in Toronto.

My ma was doing some of the looking and then one day she called, she’s like, “I found the house. You’re done. You can just buy this one.” We’re still in Vancouver at this point and I’m like, “Okay, can you send me the listing?” We look at the listing and I’m like, “Ma, there’s a staircase that goes out the front door. What are you talking about?” She was like, “This house is an exception because it’s on a corner lot which means that you have multiple exits, which means flexibility.”

When a home provides multiple ways to come in and out, there’s a backyard door, there’s a front door. She was like, then it doesn’t really matter because you’re opening up so many doors to luck in your house. That’s the exception. Then I went back to tell our real estate agent. I was like, “Hey, so my ma has went to see this house and she says it’s perfect so can you call up the–?” She was like, “I would’ve shown you this house, but the front door faces a staircase. What are you talking about?” I was like, “I’m so sorry. I didn’t know that my ma had exceptions to her rules and she found one for this one.” Anyway, long story short, we bought our house without ever setting foot in it. My ma approved this house then we went back and forth with the offers, then we bought the house. My first time being in my home was moving into my home.

Erin: Wow. You trust that woman and so does your husband.

Lainey: Yes, exactly.

Erin: Wow. Now you did say there is one other thing that could knock something off of ma’s list and that’s if it’s a really good price.

Lainey: Listen, everybody has their checklists of deal breakers and what those are, but a deal breaker can it be swayed by a deal? Is there a flex point? I don’t know for sure if my ma could be swayed by a certain flex point but I will say she loves a deal. If there was something that was a no go on our list, but there was a deal to be had like a gigantic discount, then she might be able to make an exception and probably she would’ve had to consult a feng shui master to get a blessing in the form of a charm where I would hang it somewhere to offset the bad luck of whatever issue that she took off the list.

Erin: Okay. The advice I’m hearing for REALTORS® who are listening is maybe present that house just in case.

Lainey: Yes. If it’s a really good deal.

Erin: When we return, we’ll share some parting thoughts and more laughs plus luck trends and a whole lot more. You never know what you’ll find when you pull up a virtual seat at our CREA Café. Enjoy fascinating tidbits, engaging blogs, and lots more. It all awaits you at CREA Café. Go to CREA.ca and join us there. We’re open 24/7.

We’re going to wrap up here on an actionable, Lainey, and I could talk to you for hours but I know you’ve got a show to get ready for and all the other jobs that you have. Why is it important to stay on top of lifestyle trends which you and the ladies of The Social do so well and how can REALTORS® use these trends to better support their clients?

Lainey: Erin, sometimes I think trends, some of them can be very fleeting so, I don’t know, a cut of pants or a style of coat or whatever is only going to be on trend, so to speak for a year. I also think that there are certain trends that are deeper and that they reflect the choices that people are making in their lives.

One example I can say is when I first started paying attention to homes and where people lived, it was in that whole movement where everybody was and people were building homes and looking for homes that was open concept because about 20 years ago-ish, 25 years ago, Martha Stewart Living exploded. Do you remember that?

Erin: Oh, of course.

Lainey: On the talk shows, all people would talk about was entertaining and having people over and so people would have, instead of in the past where you had in homes like rooms sectioned out where there was like a wall between the living room and the kitchen, blah, blah, blah, right? Now, or at that point everything was open concept. I guess that’s been the norm. That trend became a norm because that was how people were living their lives. They did not want to be in separate rooms.

Interestingly, I think in the last few years we’ve been hearing about more people wanting a little bit of separation in their homes. You don’t necessarily want the kitchen to feed right into the other rooms. I wonder if it’s because, and some people have theorized it’s because we’ve all spent the last two, three years living on top of each other, spending so much time together and you want a little bit more separation.

Erin: Right. Bring in the barn doors or the French doors or whatever doors but just give me some space.

Lainey: Exactly. That trend of people looking for homes with a little bit more separation and not quite as open concept, it relates to perhaps choices in life that people are making. When you ask me about why is it important to stay on top of lifestyle trends, it’s because if you just dig a little deeper in these trends, it gives you a really, I think, good snapshot into people’s lives, into what life they are wanting for themselves, how they envision their lives. It’s more than just a fleeting, ephemeral mood. It’s more than a mood and it’s more than a moment. I think that’s why certain trends are worth paying attention to.

Erin: Do you realize you’re also talking about gossip? That’s very interesting because it completely turns around, it goes full circle to the beginning of our conversation in that the trends and gossip mirror who we are. Look at you.

Lainey: I didn’t put that together, but that’s why you’re doing what you’re doing, Erin.

Erin: Wow. Very interesting. I do have to ask you one thing, how many years you’ve been in your house that ma picked out for you?

Lainey: We moved into our house in July of 2013 so nine years.

Erin: I have to ask you this now. How’s your luck been?

Lainey: Okay. If you really want to go there, Erin and I have found that people love talking about feng shui. There are some people who scoff at it and they’re like, “Ugh, superstitions, that’s so stupid and why would you believe something like that?” But when people get into it, it’s as engaging or even more than celebrity gossip.Anyway, about feng shui. The thing about luck and feng shui is even when you’re lucky, if you happen to be having some good luck, you should never talk about it because luck is very finicky. If luck thinks that you’re not appreciative of it, or you’re ungrateful or you’re bragging about it, it will be like, “No I’m going to bounce. I don’t need to be with this person who doesn’t deserve me.”

You asked me a question, how lucky I’ve been. That’s why I’m not answering. I do not want to jinx whatever good or bad situation I have here. All I’ll say is that I love my home. My home has been good to me because I share it with beautiful creatures. My husband and my two dogs.

Erin: Ma doesn’t live there?

Lainey: No.

Erin: Okay. Just checking.

Lainey: She lives in her own place. That’s a good segue to real estate and people looking for homes, because my parents are aging and my ma has a disability. The reality which no one wants to confront, but it’s coming for you. The reality is one day I may have to take care– I’m already their caregiver and I’m already doing a lot for them, but one day I may have to take care of one of them or both in my own home. That’s going to be a whole new checklist. I guess, like the thing for REALTORS®, if we’re looking for more advice, it’s that people’s circumstances can change. When you have build a relationship with somebody, you should invest in that relationship because you never know when that relationship will spark up again, given the changes in their lives.

Erin: That’s a very, very good point. There’s so much wisdom and such a joy to talk with you here today, Lainey. Thank you and how lucky we’ve been to have you on our podcast today. Thanks again and we’ll talk to you again soon, I’m sure.

Lainey: Thank you so much, Erin. It was so fun talking to you.

Erin: Watch Lainey Lui on CTV’s Etalk and The Social, and you can of course keep up on the latest dish on her site, LaineyGossip.com. The name of her book, in case you missed it, is: Listen to the Squawking Chicken: When Mother Knows best. What’s a Daughter to do? Her name as author is Elaine Lui, L-U-I.

Thanks for joining us for episode 31 of REAL TIME. Download, rate and enjoy every episode wherever the best podcasts are heard. I’m Erin Davis. REAL TIME is brought to you by the Canadian Real Estate Association, produced by the team at Alphabet® Creative with technical production from Real Family and Rob Whitehead.

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Erin Davis: Welcome to REAL TIME, the podcast for and about realtors from the Canadian Real Estate Association. We’ve got a terrific guest for you today. I’m Erin Davis, and you’re going to be tempted to take notes or just listen again and again because our guest is an author, instructor, keynote speaker, certified professional coach, and the person you wish you had sitting next to you on a plane for four hours, Neil Thornton, President of the Thornton Group. Just some of his wisdom, your business will get better when your people get better, your people will get better when their management gets better.

As the workforce continues to evolve with some post-pandemic industries experiencing a labor shortfall, and others seeing an increase, creating a culture that employees value is critical to recruit and retain the right talent. Here we go. On episode 30 of REAL TIME, we are joined by Neil Thornton to help REALTORS® and brokers, regardless of your role on a team, strengthen your leadership, coaching, and engagement skills to build a strong team culture. Welcome to REAL TIME, Neil. It is such a pleasure to talk with you today.

Neil Thornton: Same here, Erin. Thanks. I’m so excited to do this.

Erin: You got to tell us a little bit about the Thornton Group. A lot of the people who are listening today are familiar with you. You did a talk recently for CREA in St. John’s, and of course, you’re well known for what you do, but why don’t you tell the few who don’t know just what the Thornton Group is?

Neil: It’s been a great ride, about 23 years. I often tell people it’s strategic doing that we do, and they look at me really odd. I’ll often say, “The strategic planning is easy, it’s the doing that’s the hard part.” Then, in part of that doing is leading change. I think that’s probably the most important business skill right now is our ability to lead change. I quote General Shinseki, “If you don’t like change, you’ll like irrelevancy even less.”

I think that’s our business reality because today, I honestly believe we are in the attention span economy where attention spans are shorter than ever before, so messaging, standing out in a crowded marketplace. Also, it’s dealing with change. We’re in exponentially changing times. I think what we’ve done before is not going to get the same results today or even beyond. I think that’s what organizations are looking for is the speed of change.

Erin: We will talk a little bit further on about this, but instead of looking in the rearview mirror, as you say, what used to work, be looking through the windshield because it’s much larger anyway. That’s going to be, I think the basis of a lot of what we talk about here today, which is why this forward-looking and being able to put behind the highs, and the lows, and the really unusual circumstances of the past few years and be able to try and see into the future just a little bit.

Neil: You remember the key word everybody used was pivot. Through the pandemic, it was pivot and pivot, but I really think the classic skills that we’ve learned to build our organizations to this point, there’s fundamental skills and then there’s some new skills. What the pandemic has done is it threw us into a virtual environment, but you still have the same personal cues, the speaking, the energy, the transferring the enthusiasm, which is so important in a virtual world if not even more.

In fairness, I teach at Niagara College here, and this will be the first year we’ve graduated students who have not stepped foot on campus, and most colleges, universities are saying that right now, but to that generation, they’re used to it. They get these changes. We can’t fight. We have to learn. It’s not what happens to us it matters, it’s how we react to it, really.

Erin: Of course, of course, Viktor Frankl said that the last human freedom is how we choose to react to whatever happens to us.

Neil: Man’s Search for Meaning.

Erin: What a great little book. Going back to the classroom a little bit, teaching via Zoom and the various different ways that you did that, how did that translate to how a businessperson conducts themselves? I understand that you were called upon by a very, very large company to help them to hold better meetings or to communicate better with their staff. I know that we are so far into this now that practically everybody has a pithy mug that says, “I’m on my Zoom call,” or whatever, but tell me if there’s any little nuggets that any of us has missed that we could put to use on Zoom or being more effective on our laptops or whatever camera happens to be in our house.

Neil: I wrote a report. It was very early in the pandemic. It was Elevate Your Virtual Meetings. I take it back to 2008 in the last recession, I was a managing partner of one of the largest training companies in the world. It was Dale Carnegie Business Group here in Canada. When the recession hit, it made us reinvent. What I did when the pandemic hit was go back to those lessons, but then I also started reading things like nonverbals, body language, improving my speaking ability, improving my vocabulary.

Executives who reached out to me during the pandemic, I took them back to not only the fundamentals, like don’t run a virtual meeting sitting down. Stand up, let them see your energy. Are you speaking to eyes or foreheads? Because if you’re speaking to foreheads, you’ve lost your audience. You have to change the delivery of your message.

Erin: What do you mean? One sec, Neil. Eyes or foreheads, are you talking about looking up into the lens on your laptop or what are you referring to there?

Neil: Right. You’re leading a group of people. Do you have people’s eyes looking into the camera because you have their attention or are you speaking to their foreheads? They’re busy on their phones or checking their emails.

Erin: Oh, oh, oh. Okay. All right. I get that.

Neil: That’s a concept I use when I teach public speakers is if you’re in a room full of people and people are checking their phones, you’ve lost the room. Stop the meeting. Go for a walk. Break it up. Get into a team exercise. It’s being spontaneous to lead and understand the influence you’re having on other people. I think that’s the greatest skill right now for any person in business, including REALTORS®, is learn to read a room.

Don’t forget, Erin, we’re working on the experience of any meeting or interaction. Even in this call for REALTORS®, it’s what people say about you when you leave the meeting, or are you having a meeting and then another meeting happens in the hallway after the meeting, then you have a culture problem.

Erin: What is the definition of leadership? Oh, this is good, but I’ll let Neil Thornton tell you, after all, he’s the expert. He’ll do that right after I remind you about CREA Café. You know it, right? It’s where you get the latest scoop on real estate news and industry developments, CREA Café. We hear a lot about workplace culture being a key driver for today’s workforce. How do you define workplace culture?

Neil: There’s a concept I use teaching marketing today is your brand now precedes you. That could be your personal brand or your organizational brand, but it’s what people say about you when you’re not in the room. I’ve been teaching leadership for 20 years; I finally came up with that definition. The definition of leadership is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.

That’s reputation, it’s testimonials, it’s videos. A previous colleague of mine always said, “When you say it, it’s bragging. When others say it, it’s proof.” I think we have to look at what we’re known as in our market, and that’s often a reflection of our culture, which includes people who not only work with us now but maybe people who have decided to leave, and they’ve gone on to other opportunities, what would they say about their experience working with you?

Erin, this is so important because an organization today needs to attract talent. We all know how hard it is right now to attract talent. It’s because of the retiring baby boomers, now moving into Gen X, you’re seeing this huge exodus due to the pandemic from the workforce. We’re now looking at these younger generations, the Millennials, the Gen Zs, their attention spans are different, but they can multitask, they can communicate, they’re wired differently than any other generation. Does your organization, is it going to attract that future generation? I think that’s the number one thing most organizations need to work on right now is attracting future talent and being cool, being seen as a company that’s cool.

Erin: That’s positive. To turn it negative for just a second, what are some of the common mistakes that leaders make in trying to create a positive culture? Can you think of any?

Neil: It’s sending some people off to a retreat, and you do some wordsmithing, and we have a new vision, mission, values, and strategic plan, and then you stand there, and you jump up on a mount, and you give a speech and people in the room are like, “I don’t have any relationship to this.” I’ve often used the term that every person in your company should have a fingerprint on where you’re going, their vision and values.

Then another thing I see a lot of people do is they spend far too much time trying to fix or convince people. Have you ever tried to send an angry person anger management? It usually peeves them off because they don’t have a relationship. For years, I did human relations training. I had people in a room who were voluntold to be there, or they were there to get fixed. You know they’re not going to put anything in that program, so we very graciously let them leave on their own terms. They had to go back to their bosses and tell them why, but I think we need to work on and focus on the people who are contributing to our business.

Have you ever noticed it’s not the bad people who leave a company? It’s usually the good people. When they leave, they give you a resignation, everybody’s surprised. That is a reflection of your culture is you need people to stay. If you’ve got a turnover or an attrition issue in your organization, you have to look in the mirror and say, “What is it about me that people are leaving this organization? What is it about us and our leadership team? Are we focused on the right things?

Erin: That’s where the problems that are the biggest obstacles come in. You’ve spoken of them. There’s ego and–

Neil: Ego and fear. It’s the only two things that’ll ever get in the way of anybody’s success. Fear, I’m going to be optimistic. I don’t see a lot of ego in business anymore. In the body language we call it splaying or taking up a lot of space, raised chins means I’m raising kill points, you’re not a threat to me. I like the book, The Power of Now and Eckhart Tolley said, “Ego and awareness cannot coexist.” I think if ego’s in check in an organization, then you go to fear. I know a lot of really great leaders who really want to succeed, but they can’t get themselves out of the way. They spend too much time in their own brain.

Erin: The same talent that got them to where they are, the overthinking, the taking care of details, and all that can also turn into an internal weapon.

Neil: Look at the definition of insanity. I’m doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. In 2022, that will not work. Maybe 10 years ago, you could maybe get away with that thinking, but today, it just changes so fast. I’ve got students graduating from college. What they learned in first year is almost irrelevant by the time they graduate. That’s the speed of change in technology and data. That generation, they understand that is I have to learn to change.

Now, I get this a lot in groups of people. I often ask people, “Hey, raise your hand. If you feel people resist change.” Everybody probably on this call, their hands would go up. It’s actually not true. In fact, people resist the uncertainty of the change, that’s perceived forced on them. A great book that I often turn to is Start with Why by Simon Sinek where if you’re leading change, you have to explain the why of the change, then the how, but a lot of people just go to the how and the tactics. Then, that’s why you get that meeting in the hallway after the meeting because people don’t know why they’re doing. Then, that creates apathy.

Apathy is a cancer that will kill your organization. There’s a word. You had mentioned to me earlier, Erin, about measuring culture. There’s a word that if you hear in your organization, just stop the bus. It’s the word they. When you hear that, that elicits and us versus them conversation, an underlying pattern of mistrust. As soon as you hear the word they, stop and say, “I thought it was we. I thought this company was we.” It’s amazing how vocabulary and linguistics tie into all elements of business right now.

Erin: We hope you’re enjoying REAL TIME. I loved this conversation because so much of what Neil says is fascinating, truly. Next up, we’ll look at what your potential client is saying without using words. There’s so much more to explore here with us on REAL TIME month after month. Subscribe wherever you enjoy the best podcasts for episodes with newsmakers, insiders, designers, and great minds who share their wisdom with you. You can also go to CREA.ca/podcast for more details.

Now, we’re back to our chat with Neil Thornton. Before we get on any further, I need to hear some of those body language things that about that you can impart to people who are conducting meetings. I got to hear this. We all do well.

Neil: The whole essence of body language for me is not if somebody’s lying. That’s out of integrity. For me, I use body language to be able to read a room and read the influence I have on that room so that if I’m doing a keynote and I notice that there’s some closed gestures, people are closing up. Remember the classic arms cross in front of the chest. For some people, that’s comfort. That could be a self hug. You watch for changes in body language.

If somebody has open gestures to you their hands are out. Remember shaking hands. Your hand is neutral, and people are open, and their body language is open, and they’re comfortable, and they’re tapping their feet. That’s comfort signs, or their legs are out front that’s comfort. People are comfortable, their head’s nodding. Then, when you say something, they lean back, they cross their arms, they fold their legs. They almost start to take up less space. You’ve just insulted them. You’ve said something that’s told their brain to close up due to comfort.

If you see someone rubbing or pacifying or tugging on a piece of clothing, that’s the brain pacifying. Adults don’t suck thumbs, but my eight-month-old grandson sucks his thumb because babies do that to pacify. Now, we say, “Adults don’t pacify.” Go to a University during exam week, you’ll see a lot of pacifying and people rubbing. That’s the brain trying to comfort itself.

That’s how I use body language. If people are opened, or closed, or comfortable, or uncomfortable, you read the cues, and it gives you a better ammunition when dealing with people especially, say for today if you’re a REALTOR® and you’re walking up to a home, and you see some nonverbal gestures. That couple is giving you the cues of their relationship with you and what you can and can’t do.

Erin: Excellent. Earlier on, you mentioned the idea of going away to some sort of an inspiration camp or whatever. You brought to my mind a vision board, the thing where you put your vision there. Part of your message, if I understand it, has been to make the messages on the board actually come down and be part of your lives instead of just making the vision, and then just letting it be, making the vision a reality. How does one go about doing that?

Neil: I go bananas here. Here we go. Far too many companies have these vague platitudes. They’re called wallpaper. They’re in the lobby wall or a banner in a website. They say something like, “We will exceed client’s expectations by offering the highest level of service and quality.” Right now, my finger’s in my throat because I’m going to throw up. That is nonsense you. How can you exceed client’s expectations when I just mentioned how quickly they’re changing? Real vision is a very clear picture of where we’re going.

Think about Bill Gates. When Bill Gates said every home will own a personal computer. At the time, a microprocessor was as large as an apartment, and Bill Gates said, “Let’s make it happen.” When JFK said by the end of the 1960s, we’ll put someone on the moon and bring them back alive. Martin Luther king, “I have a dream.” Steve jobs, “All of human knowledge on a handheld device.” Now, those are visions. A vision is a very clear picture of where we’re going. An organization creates that vision. Everyone’s involved. They believe in it.

Now, comes the hard part. How do we not just check this off a strategic plan and put it in a binder somewhere? What I often coach organizations to do is number one, agree on the vision, everybody agrees, and core values, vision, mission, core values are strategic goals, everybody, agree. Next week, please come prepared to have your name pulled from a hat. If you are pulled, you will be asked to stand and in front of your colleagues, give a specific example, including a date and a time, of when either you have lived the vision, mission, values or noticed somebody else doing it. Have a great week.

People now leave that meeting with the tension knowing that they could be called upon the next week to give real examples. You agree, then you assign, you come back, and you record successes, you publish it for the company, and then you celebrate successes. At the heart of every culture, the heart of everything is Maslow, the hierarchy of needs, the number one human need, self-actualization, the feeling of importance. In business, it’s recognition of a job well done, appreciation.

That vision is creating future-based action, future-based conversations, future-based commitments, which pulls that organization to innovate. Most companies are mired in the status quo at best, the current reality, problem-solving, firefighting. You know if all you do all day is problem solve, firefight, and babysit, all you produce are more problems, fires, and babies. It’s so true. Company leaders are frustrated because that’s where they find themselves. We need to focus on where we’re going. I say start with listening.

Erin: You’ve said that it’s strategic. Tell me about that.

Neil: As human beings. Here’s what we tend to do. When someone says something in a room, think about a meeting room you’ve been in, and someone says something, and what you tend to observe is people often say, “That’s just like, or remember when, or oh, let me tell you why that’s not going to work.” What happens is we tend to listen for what we already know.

When people feel judged in that environment, it’s like going home and let’s say you have a spouse or a partner at home, and you say, “Honey, would you mind sitting down? I like to talk about your performance over the last year.” “Neil, that’s ridiculous.” We do it with our employees. We do it in meetings. We judge people based on what they say, based on what we already know. Listening is often from the past. It’s based on what’s probable. That’s why innovation’s hard.

When you coach listening for what’s possible, instead of probable, you’ll hear what you’ve never heard, but you used the word earlier, Erin, which is really important. I get it from a book called the Art of Possibility by Ben Zander. He’s the conductor of the Boston Philharmonic. In the book, he ends one of his chapters, and it’s how I ended my book that I just wrote. It’s the two words, “How fascinating?”

It’s interesting, I just try it with groups. Guys, just say how fascinating. You listen from curiosity, not knowing. We tend to listen for what we already know from a right or wrong or should and shouldn’t be standpoint. Just admit we don’t know what we don’t know. That’s where innovation lies. I think that’s where every organization has to go now in 2022.

Erin: Listening from a place of I don’t know.

Neil: I don’t know. I admit I don’t know what I don’t know. I’m going to listen from curiosity, and I’m going to listen from innovation, not already knowing. That gets rid of the ego.

Erin: That’s coming back to Eckhart Tolle again.

Neil: How many meetings have we sat in where you just hear people justifying their opinions, they’re going around the room. They just justify themselves. Then, you leave the meeting going “That meeting was about as useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle. We didn’t advance anything. Far too many times, we do that.

Erin: When we return, building your team and what a strong team looks like. Are you a team player in your community as well, showing up and doing the work when volunteers and leaders alike are needed for great causes? Then why not share your story, using #realtorscare? REALTORS Care® is a national guiding principle, celebrating the great charitable work done by the Canadian REALTOR® community. Help raise awareness for those charities and causes you love. Again, use social media and the #realtorscare.

Let’s dig a bit deeper into specific team-building strategies and best practices. You’ve got so much wisdom and you’ve got great ideas. Let’s get the message through here. Some general characteristics of a strong team in your experience.

Neil: A lot of time, if not most of our time, is spent contributing to where we’re going, the vision. If you could picture a vision above your desk, and your desk is the current reality, the vision has an elastic. An elastic that anchors the vision to the current reality, and tension seeks resolution. What we put our attention to is what happens. If you hear language in your organization like, “I’m busy. I haven’t been able to do it.” Then, you hear weak words like, hope, try, maybe, I’d like to do it. Those are just weak languages.

Vision language is very strong. It’s, “I will. We are going to do this. Here’s what’s at risk if we don’t.” It’s amazing. One of the top things I get asked to do right now is how do I have robust and difficult conversations with people, the conversations we need to have that are honest. Again, there’s no conflict in reality. Check your premises. That was Ayn Rand that wrote that. Let’s get really honest with our dialogue. I’ve been going back to this a lot. It’s time to get human again, Erin.

Right behind me is a book from 1935. It’s an actual original copy of How to Win Friends & Influence People. It’s one of the most popular books in the world, and I’m seeing a lot of people picking that book up again. You’d mentioned earlier was Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning. When I work with people who are so stressed today, and they don’t know what they’re going to do, and they’re so worrisome, I pull that book out and say, “Read this book, and then you’ll know what stress really is.”

Erin: Tell me how it is that a nearly 100-year-old book from Dale Carnegie is still resonating.

Neil: It tells amazing stories of how people have built rapport, trust, respect with other people, how to gain willing and enthusiastic cooperation, how to change people’s minds without creating resentment, how to lead and inspire a team. I think those human skills, they just transcend the generations. They really do.

In dealing with a younger generation at the college right now, in the university world, it’s what a lot of students are looking for. They’re smart. They’re really smart students, but they want to strengthen their leadership and human relations. They also want to strengthen a relationship with failure and adversity. It’s a generational thing we’re dealing with right now, an entire generation that needs to understand failure.

Erin: What do we need to learn about the Gen Z?

Neil: You got to be careful. Just diversity right now is so prevalent. We live in a divisive society. We all know that. I think we have to stop. I often do this with a room full of people. I often say, “Hey, are we all committed here today? Please understand that all people are committed. We’re all here today. You all have a different worldview. I’d like everyone to close their eyes, put their right hand in the air, and point north. Everybody, open your eyes. You will see an entire room of committed people pointing in a different direction.”

You say, “Here we are. We all have a different interpretation of reality.” If somebody has number one, the courage to go to HR and say, “This is how I feel,” they’re saying that because they feel they can’t share it elsewhere. It’s a result of a number of interactions that have been unconscious by a number of people. Unfortunately, it’s the visit to HR that’s the end of the line, like, “Okay, we now have a complaint.” That brings us back down to if all we’re doing all day is solving people’s problems, we’re never going to advance.

I often say, as a leader of any organization, get really good at connecting what people’s commitments are and align the expectations. What do we expect of each other? If you feel you can’t approach your boss or you call them a boss or whatever, those aren’t modern organizations. Those are hierarchical organizations. You need to have flat equal organizations. Most CEOs I work with today, they don’t even have an office. They come in, they’ve got a tablet, they’ve got coffee areas, meeting rooms. They sit with people, and they coach and mentor. Those are great skill sets.

Erin: What’s the balance between coaching and knowing, Neil, when a team member just isn’t going to work out?

Neil: Let’s start with coaching. Coaching is a science. You and I have talked about it. It’s a certified science, but each person if they’re a business leader on this call has three skill sets. You have management skills, leadership skills, and coaching skills. All three are completely different. Coaching is about identifying people’s strengths that they might not realize they have. You ask great questions. People leave a coaching session with a heightened level of awareness and capacity to do more. That’s what a coach does. Leaders inspire a group, and managers manage things.

The rule of coaching is you never coach unless someone asks you. If you’ve got a progressive culture, going back to one of your first questions, what’s a sign of a great culture? You have a coaching organization. People have created their own business plans. They have their own visions. They know where they’re going. They see the value of being coached by an impartial person who’s there to help them, not to manage them. That’s the sign of a great organization.

Now, on the flip side of that, if we’re trying to maybe send ducks to eagle school, or we’re trying to fix problem people, one of the greatest pieces of business advice I ever got was hire slow, fire fast. If someone is just not prepared to go where the organization’s going, it’s okay to part ways. Help them with their career, move them to somewhere where they’re going to be happy. I think we spend far too much time trying to solve people. It’s just a complete waste of time today.

Erin: Coming up, choosing innovation through focusing on the future and when busy is not a good word in business. We live in a huge country, but REALTOR.ca brings everybody together. It’s the meeting place for buyers, sellers, and everyone in between. Right now, there’s like a quarter million listings there from trusted realtors. Of course, that number’s probably changed since I started talking with Neil. Check it out, REALTOR.ca, reliable real estate resources, all under one roof. Neil, how can leaders keep up with the speed of business today while maintaining strong human relationships with their teams?

Neil: I would say, the new speed of business actually means being aware of the impact you’re having on other people. I just wrote a book called Presence, Impact, and Influence. What I’m finding now, what I’m being asked is I’m approached by leaders, managers, owners, C-suite executives. This is what they’re saying to me, “Neil, I pretty much know everything about my job. I know everything about the academia, the tactics, all the strategies. I know what I’m doing. I’ve been doing it for years. I now want to raise my awareness. I now want to know how memorable am I. How could I be a better speaker? How could I better understand the room? How could I better lead and inspire a team?”

I think that’s the conversation that’s happening with progressive companies right now is people are saying, “I don’t want to keep doing what I’ve always ever done. I want to innovate, and I want to grow.” If you want to attract future talent, you have to have that future focused in your organization.

The other thing I often say too is get really good at interrogating language. When someone comes in a room and they say, “I didn’t get to it. I was busy, or I just didn’t have time,” that’s a great opportunity. Just stop the meeting and say, “Just tell the truth.” Then, “What? “Just tell the truth. It wasn’t important to you. Just say it.” Now, in my business, I’ve lost my filter many, many years ago, but having someone in the room that just stops the room and interrogates the reality and says, “Just admit it. You had said you were going to do this, and you’ve come back and said that you didn’t do it, which means you’re out of integrity with your group. You have to build that integrity back up, but your language was I just got busy.”

Busy is not a good word in business anymore. There’s no room for busy. Instead of saying, “I made a commitment to do it, I didn’t know what to do, or I wasn’t aware how to do it.” Okay, no problem. That’s a coaching conversation, but we let too many conversations go across a room without someone interrogating them.

Erin: It sounds confrontational though, Neil. It would be very difficult to conduct without seeming like you’re picking at, or picking a fight, or picking on them. Wouldn’t you agree? How do you think people would perceive that? Why don’t you just tell the truth?

Neil: You’re talking to a classic Dale Carnegie person that builds that trust and rapport with the groups. Then, I often say things like, “I need to say something. Now, I’m saying this because I love you guys. I love my clients, and I care about them, but I need to say something that needs to be said, and I’m saying this so it advances us.”

You’d be amazed Erin, most people, I think, “Oh, I’m going to get punched in the parking lot.” I get a phone call, and it’s usually that person that says, “I want to thank you because no one in my company had the courage to tell me what you said and because you said that, it made me realize that yes, you know what, maybe I am using weak language. Maybe, I have fallen into a rut.” That’s the value of a great coach. A great coach isn’t loved. A great coach has respect and integrity, and they help people advance their language.

Erin: You prefaced it by saying, I’m going to say something that comes from a place of love or whatever else that it does. That totally makes sense. How do you balance equitable treatment for those who’ve been loyal to you with the need to attract new talent? This is another lane that a lot of people are finding themselves in.

Neil: We live in a time where seniority doesn’t mean what it used to. I worked with an organization once that was a government agency, and a gentleman walked in a room and said, “25 more years, and I’m out of here.” I’m like, “Okay.” That’s apathy kicking in. What I often find is the people who have more experience, they’re tenured. What I often do is let them be champions, let them mentor, let them create a legacy, let them work with some of the newer performers that are coming on board.

It’s not just you as the leader, you delegate some of that mentorship to other people. They feel valued. They’ll actually go home at night saying, “Hey, I know I’ve been in this organization for years, but I’m finally being asked for my opinion, and I’m finally being able to contribute my knowledge to younger people.” They get a bit of a kick in their step.

Erin: Then, it’s so important for younger or newer members to a team to know that they can go to someone, that they can be vulnerable, that they could say, “Look, I ran into this, and I don’t know what to do about it, or what would you have done?” or to be able to mine some of that wealth of information and wisdom that’s just there for the taking.

Neil: Then, in my work, I’m very digital. I’m very black and white. You have to be when you’re dealing with teams. When someone fails, it’s only because of two reasons. Number one, they don’t know what to do, they don’t have the knowledge, or number two, they know what they need to do, but they’re not willing to execute on that. As a manager, just ask them, which one is it? Have we not done a good enough job giving you the skills and the knowledge to do this, or you need to do it, but you’re not necessarily doing it? Let’s talk about what’s really getting in the way. Maybe, you’re fearful. Maybe, there’s some procrastination issues that we need to deal with.

That’s what really great managers do, is you get down to the facts, and you take the personalities out of conflicts, and personalities out of this. Like, “Oh, well, this person thinks this about you.” That’s not healthy at all. Just say, “Let’s hold a mirror up to you. Let’s look at who you’re being as a human being. Are you a human being or a human doing? Are you running around just being busy?” Because most people right now are just so focused on what’s in front of their face.

If you put your hand right in front of your nose, the focus doesn’t change until you pull your hand away and you start to have a different perspective. I often coach, really, it’s interesting, I coach executive leaders to walk around the building, start learning how to meditate, prayer. Just do something that pulls you away from this day-to-day, work on you, and not just be so buried in the business because you’re not building any integrity with your team if you’re not available for them.

Erin: We’ll be back to Neil Thornton with a phrase he’s used earlier that’s worth repeating and why it’s vital that it sinks in for each of us, but before we do let me remind you, don’t miss our next REAL TIME podcast as soon as it drops. Subscribe where you listen to your favorite podcasts or just go to CREA.ca/podcast for more. Your brand now precedes you is something that you have said. We will get the title of your book and where to find it coming up. I hope that this is a big part of the book but tell us what those words mean. Your brand now proceeds you, and why it’s so important today.

Neil: This is the world we live in where when I say your brand precedes you, it means that I know everything about you before I meet you. That’s digital feeds, social media. I’m a huge proponent of LinkedIn from a professional standpoint, I’ve got just over 6,200 connections. I’ve got 104 written recommendations. To me, people often call me because they see that. They see a website that has testimonial videos on the first page because of what I said earlier when you say it, it’s bragging, when others say it, it’s proof. I’m always collecting people’s impressions of what I do.

My goal is to walk in a room and people say, “I’ve heard about the great things that you do.” I think that’s what every businessperson wants. That now involves building content, being a thought leader, doing keynotes with your industries and your associations. I’m seeing REALTORS® doing that a lot now. They’re now doing real estate news and market updates, and they’re putting themselves out there by being seen as experts in their field. They’re the ones that are working on their brand and how they stand out. I think every organization needs to focus on that right now is brand of your own personal reputation, your team’s reputation, and your organization’s reputation.

Erin: Well, this is a great time to mention the book. Would you tell us about it, how it came to be, what it’s called, and where we can find it, Neil?

Neil: It was a pandemic project. I had planned it a couple of years ago, but it turned into this 390-page behemoth. It’s called Presence, Impact, and Influence. In the book, I talk about leading change, executive reinvention, speaking skills, body language. People love the body language stuff, but it was really meant to be a reference tool for executives, owners, and managers to really focus on themselves and the impact that they’re having, the influence they’re having on others, and then the presence when they walk into a room. That’s all the human stuff. That’s why I wrote it. I’m so proud. I have it on Amazon.ca. Amazon, woo. It’s your friend.

Erin: It is. The title again is PII.

Neil: Presence, Impact, and Influence by Neil Thornton.

Erin: Well done. Excellent. Okay, Neil, let’s end this on an actionable end note. When it comes to team building and workplace culture, what is your go-to piece of advice? First off, for leaders.

Neil: For leaders, understand that your culture will eat your strategy for breakfast. That’s from Peter Drucker. That is so true. We spend so much time on strategy and so little time on culture, and dialogue, and conversations.

Erin: For your employees.

Neil: In the absence of a vision, we’re each just driven by our own agendas. We’re inattentive to each other’s needs and we inadvertently pull the win from each other’s sales. That’s a quote from the Art of Possibility, but it’s so true that not only do I need to align to my organizational vision, but I need to have a vision of my own and where am I going, and it needs to be a very clear picture. Also, have a plan to deal with the critics and the cynics and the sidelines who want to tell you why you can’t succeed.

Erin: There, we go to Teddy Roosevelt and it is saying about it’s the ones who are in the arena getting dirty and bloody and not the ones who are sitting in the stands that matter. I think you and I read a lot of the same things.

Neil: Yes, we do.

Erin: I think so. I haven’t read your book yet though. Maybe, you’ll read mine and we’ll do a book club.

Neil: I’ve already ordered it.

Erin: Wonderful. Now, for those who get stuck in a holding pattern, not going forward, not going backward, who is coaching you to move, who is stretching you? Seems to be the question that needs to be asked, yes?

Neil: I’ve often said, the greatest athletes in the world use coaches. People are going to laugh, but let’s say the Toronto Maple Leafs, they win a game. Well, the next day, they’re being coached. They’re not celebrating. They’re in watching films. The greatest businesspeople realize that, “Hey, I’m a good person, and what I’ve done is got me to this point, but it might not necessarily get me to the next point. If I can find an outside, non-biased, professional advisor, a business coach, a real business coach who will be willing to listen and not just give me advice. That’s what consultants do. They come in and, “You’d be more successful if you’re more like me.” I just find that arrogant.

A real consultant, a real coach says, “Hey, you’d be more successful if you’re more like you. Let’s look at your patterns. Let’s look at your underlying patterns that maybe you’ve lost or become unaware of, like your language that’s getting you what you’re getting.” I often say to business leaders, “You’ve got great tools. My goal is to give you more tools. You can go back to the originals, but I’m going to give you more tools to get the job done quicker and faster. It’s going to be up to you if you want to use them.” Whenever you try something new, it takes a bit of practice at first, so a great coach gets people through that learning curve.

Erin: I really feel like you gave us a whole bunch of new tools, and some good advice, and good insight on perhaps how to start using them more effectively. Neil, we are so grateful for you joining us here today and sharing your wisdom, your humor, your insight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Neil: I’m honored. Thank you, Erin.

Erin: Neil Thornton is President of the Thornton Group. If you’re looking for that book of his on Amazon, once again, it’s called Presence, Impact, and Influence. If it’s as great as this chat was, I am sure it’s worth a read. Thanks to Rob Whitehead for putting this together for Real Family Productions, to Alphabet® Creative for producing REAL TIME. I’m your host, Erin Davis, and we will talk with you again soon on REAL TIME. Bye for now.